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Armor values

Hey Raymond,

Good job with all the edits on creatures! I'm curious how you test the armor values. An area physical attack and see the difference in damage between unknown creature and known armor value creature? Or do you read them directly from client memory or something? -- Bennie (talk ~ fellows) 08:31, March 28, 2016 (UTC)

Hello Bennie. Well, there are a few methods I use to get a creture's armor value.

One of them is exactly what you wrote. We get the difference range between the damages dealt simultaneously in two creatures of the same race. For this, you can either use Burst Arrows, or area attack spells of Knight.

You can also use Paladin's ethereal spear spells (both versions), but this is a bit different, and it is not as efficient as the methods above and below.

Another way is to use the item Trap, because the damage it deals is only reduced by the target's creature armor. Besides that, it inflicts a constant damage, that is 30. So by getting the minimum and maximum damages dealt by this item in the target, you can use those data to get the armor value.

Of course, there's a catch. If you do the first method (difference range) you don't have to worry about target' creature resistance to physical element, on the other hand, if you use the method that uses the item Trap, then you'll have to do a few others operations to get them (the armor values) right.

Hey, I've been registered here since 2012 I guess, but just now (I made few researches on I felt that I really had something to contribute to the wikia. So, my idea is not just updating creatures pages with their exact armor/resistance values, but I also thought about creating a page here, with all the formulas, explanations, etc. Just like that page we have here regarding formulas.

So, how does it work? I mean, can a user create a page, etc? xD —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RaymondTFR (talkcontribs). Remember to sign your comments! 08:59, March 28, 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your answer. Now I remember about the Trap trick. I think it would be an excellent idea to document the explanations, yes!

In the past I started with a page called Help:Resistance Testing, which was intented to explain other TibiaWiki contributors how they could test resistances. Maybe you can expand that page with the procedure for Armor values, or create the page Help:Armor Testing.

Although, if you want to create a page for readers of TibiaWiki (not for contributors per se), it should be made in the main namespace, maybe something like Creature Armor? So yes, you can make a page, please go ahead. If you need any help, just say it :) -- Bennie (talk ~ fellows) 15:09, March 28, 2016 (UTC)

RaymondTFR (talk) 00:29, March 29, 2016 (UTC) Exactly, I would to document this so that other contributors can contribute too.

I just saw the page Help:Resistance Testing, it is pretty straight-forward. Yep, I would need to extend that page somehow, which could be to have the Physical Damage in the title What to test? to link to the page of creature's Armor (they are intrinsically connected), or the Creature's Armor page should have indeed the explanations regarding, of course, the creature's armor to only then they can get a grasp of understanding how to get the resistance to physical of the possible ways.

I didn't think about that, I guess it would be a better fit to create the page for contributors, so that if there's any reader curious about that, they would just have to sign up, so that they access it, right?

Yeah, I'll start summarizing all the explanations, making it as concise as possible. By the way, it would be essential to have photos of real testing to make it even more easy to understand, than just explanations, formulas, etc.

Hmm, so for formulas I would need LaTeX right? is it available here, cause I've seen it in formualas pages, if I'm not mistaken.

Armor value

RaymondTFR (talk) 18:24, March 30, 2016 (UTC) Hi Bennie. I have made some progress in the page [1] from time to time, though somehow the page triggered this:

This action has been automatically identified as harmful, and therefore disallowed. If you believe your edit was constructive, please inform an administrator of what you were trying to do. A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: Spam general

I was just updating the page and was going to submit new changes but the editor gave me this. Anyway, I just wanna tell you that the text is almost ready, the images of real testing is what will take more time, followed by the examples with the formulas, of course. See you later!

Thanks for all the work you've put into this. I've disabled the abuse filter that you and a few others have been hitting because it seems to be broken at the moment. -- Sixorish (talk) 03:01, March 31, 2016 (UTC)

RaymondTFR (talk) 08:21, April 1, 2016 (UTC) Thanks for letting me know Sixorish. I made more improvements to the page, I hope I can gather enough images now so I can write the examples :D.

Hey, I see that you made some researches about this subject too! What you think about that page so far?

It's been a long time since I looked at armor values, but it looks quite thorough. I'm afraid it's not very applicable unless you're the mathy type. Since testing armor takes quite some time, it needs to be really easy to determine when the reduction values have been tested or it won't be of much use. Anyway, some things I've noticed (and I skimmed it so I apologize if my assessment is wrong):

  • "how to apply the parameter n" should probably have a minimum reduction column.
  • I wonder if it would be reasonable to provide a list of values for the common parameters. Most resistances are multiples of five and few creatures have resistances x < 75% or x > 125%, which means 10 columns.
  • Maybe more of a question: in your research have you ever encountered a monster with 0 defense? I believe when I tested various weak creatures they always blocked some of the damage.

-- Sixorish (talk) 11:45, April 1, 2016 (UTC)

RaymondTFR (talk) 05:53, April 2, 2016 (UTC) Yeah, I'm trying to keep it very detailed and concise, mathematically speaking., so there should be very few rooms for misunderstandings. By the way, I hope it'll be more easy for people to understand when I add the images and apply the formulas thoroughly, step by step.

I was thinking about creating a table with the creatures and their data, but I see that you already have one, so I was thinking it would be better if we contributors update it instead. We could refer and provide a link for your research table to the Armor Testing page. But if not, I guess I could create a new table page.

The "How to apply the parameter n" section is meant only for the Maximum Armor Reduction, that's why it hasn't a Minimum column nin it. I guess I should provide a brief explanation about this.

You mean like this?

Resistance Percent 25% 20% 15% 10% 5% 3%
Value 0.75 0.8 0.85 0.9 0.95 0.97

Sometimes I find some creatures with 7%, 3% resistances, i.e. Noble Lion.

  • Maybe more of a question: in your research have you ever encountered a monster with 0 defense? I believe when I tested various weak creatures they always blocked some of the damage.

You meant 0 armor? or 0 defense? If it is 0 Armor, unfortunatelly, I'm not 100% sure about this, because I still haven't tested on a player wearing no Armor. So I'm not exactly sure if it does or not reduce the damage -- if it does, then I'm guessing it would be 1 less damage. Unfortunatelly, I am limited to a Optional PvP world, but I intend to test it, so it would not be just a assumption.

Yeah, meant armor. You can test the actual formula on optional PvP on the spikes at the Greenshore cave. The damage will be fixed (60?) without armor if I recall correctly. But the question is if you have ever encountered a creature with 0 armor, because I think there aren't any. Maybe CipSoft avoids 0 armor values because it might create issues?

Regarding the %: I mostly meant for comparison's sake, a user could look at their data and check if the maximum and minimum reductions are approximately at a given interval. I wonder if it would be feasible to create a calculator based on server logs for this. Would you know the formulas for the physical spells? (I don't know if ours are up to date, I don't think they are.) -- Sixorish (talk) 10:54, April 2, 2016 (UTC)

Oh, um. I think you misunderstood. By the table I meant something like this:

Arm. \ Phys% +25% +20% +15% +10% +5% +0% -5% -10% -15% -20% -25%
0 0 - 0 0 - 0 0 - 0 0 - 0 0 - 0 0 - 0 0 - 0 0 - 0 0 - 0 0 - 0 0 - 0
1 0 - 1 0 - 1 0 - 1 0 - 1 0 - 1 0 - 1 0 - 1 0 - 1 0 - 1 0 - 1 0 - 1

These aren't actual values, but the idea is that the left column would contain the armor value, and then it would have min and max reductions in the columns to the right. Come to think of it, maybe my understanding of how the formula is applies is wrong. Does physical resistance change the difference between maximum and minimum reductions, or is it applied after? -- Sixorish (talk) 11:04, April 2, 2016 (UTC)

RaymondTFR (talk) 12:23, April 2, 2016 (UTC) Oh, hey thanks for the tip about the spikes (yeah, they deal a constant damage of 60), I made some tests and now it isn't any assumption, 0 armor does no reduction at all!

I guess there are no creatures with Armor 0, so I think an Armor value in the range [1, 3] is their default preset for general weak creatures. No I don't think it would cause any problems, since the behaviour of their formula can be modified (programming) to address some exceptions.

Hey that's actually a great idea! This would be a straightforward way for people to compare their data with the table and get the Armor value and physical resistance right away! Though it now got me thinking how I would better create this table (text, order, columns, etc).

The idea of this comparison table you had is indeed great, if I were to add armor values in the range [0, 100] then I think a calculator would not be so useful in this case, cause you would have all the instant data on your sight there for you.

The physical resistance is applied first, then the Armor value takes place. Meaning that if a researcher were to apply first the min/max armor reductions to the damage of the item Trap, and only then apply the resistance he would get faulty values.

Ah, so then two, three or four columns would be enough (armor, min reduction, max reduction, difference), no need to include the data for different phys%. -- Sixorish (talk) 12:42, April 2, 2016 (UTC)

RaymondTFR (talk) 01:56, April 3, 2016 (UTC)

Oh, I forgot to answer your question about formulas of physical spells - yeah, I do have the formulas for them, but it based off of tibia-stats spell damage calculator. I did this kind of research, but it takes too much resources (like time, money for premmium, leveling) so I decided that I would follow t-s researches instead. Though it seems they are not so fast anymore in updating things (Dawnport spells, etc), so if there's any new spells, I hope I get enough time in a Testserver so I can get the formulas, or the next time I get enough money ingame for Tibia coins xD.

Oh, I remember now. The main issue is that you're limited to using traps unless you know the formulas for those spells, that's why a lot of the creatures are untestable. -- Sixorish (talk) 05:34, April 3, 2016 (UTC)

RaymondTFR (talk) 06:16, April 3, 2016 (UTC)

No, no. There's actually no need to know those formulas for that matter, although they might be important of creatures too strong physical, such as White Shade, etc, so that you can have more ways of determining the resistance % to physical.

See this image here [2]. Now you just use $ (2d_{range}) + 2 $ or $ (2d_{range}) + 3 $, where $ d_{range} = 243 - 227 = 16 $, so you get Armor = [34, 35].

That would work for area attacks because the damage is fixed for all creatures when you initiate the attack, but you would still need to do a lot of testing to find the maximum difference. For non-area spells like ethereal spear, you can't rely on the damage being fixed so you need to know how much you could potentially deal (min, max) so that you can factor that in, right? -- Sixorish (talk) 06:36, April 3, 2016 (UTC)

RaymondTFR (talk) 07:36, April 3, 2016 (UTC) Yes, your right, but if you want total precision (and not worry about physical resistance) in discovering the armor value, then this is the method to go. The second method you should go for is the Trap damage thing, but it has its limitations, since for a creature of armor value 60 or greater, the minimum reduction is 30, making it impossible deal any damage to the target creature.

If those 2 methods I mentioned above are not ideal to the kind of research situation you are in, then the last resource is single-based attack spells, such as **exori hur, exori ico, exori gran ico, exori moe ico, exori con, exori gran con** or even explosion rune, that can also be used in the first method I mentioned, since it is a area-based attack rune. For those, you indeed would need the formulas, and the best way to do this is to visit t-s and gather the data. This is the kind of situation you would encounter when trying to gather data from [[Pythius the Rotten (Creature], Abyssador), etc, which is easier to check from tibiacast recordings.

If it is not the latter situation, then the priority would be to go through Trap Damage and Difference Range (area-based attack spell/runes) first. This is also easier because the armor reduction function of Tibia is based on a uniform distribution, which means it is easier to gather the maximum difference range by using area-based attack spell/runes because you don't need to deal the maximum damage to the target creature in order to get the effective armor reduction then the armor value, you just need to get the maximum difference range between min/max damages dealt simultaneously across two or more creatures of same type.

Besides that, it is harder to get the maximum damage dealt by a single-based attack spell (exori con, exori gran con, exori moe ico, exori ico, exori hur, exori gran ico) or an area-based attack spell/rune (knight area attack spells; explosion rune) because the random function Tibia uses for this kind of attack are not uniformly distributed, so it is even harder to harder to get the maximum damage, even though the armor reduction is uniformly distributed. And we don't have the real formulas in hands, even though t-s ones are very precise, so any value off in spell damage formulas would result in incorrect armor values.

Thanks for your dedication, Raymond, you've been doing a great job! :)

I have a few questions:

  1. If $ \forall armor \in \left\{1, 2, 3\right\}, dmg\,reduction = 1 $, how can we be sure that slime has armor value equals 2 (and not 1 or 3)? Is there a way to determine the exact armor value in this case?
  2. Is there a way to determine the armor value of creatures that has just a few health points (less than 30) such as Mad Sheep?
  3. Is there a way to determine the defense value of a creature other than analysing a log of ordinary melee hits in order to find maximum and minimum hits after the defense is applied?

Hunter of Dragoes (Talk · Contribs · Admins) - 22:50, April 8, 2016 (UTC)

RaymondTFR (talk) 23:19, April 8, 2016 (UTC)

Hello Hunter of Dragoes. Thanks for the compliment :).

Answering your questions:

  • 1. I'm pretty sure that there is not a way of determining the exactly value for the armor when it is within that range, so it is more like a luck guess if you ask me. Which also means that we can't know which value they use, if it is the odd, or the even value.
  • 1.1 But if you really want a more precise answer, based on the old *leaked* files of tibia monsters, yes, Slime has exactly an Armor value of 2.

  • 2. Yeah, there is. If you have atleast two creatures surrounding you, and you use a character of level 8 or lower, bow loaded with burst arrows, and the lowest distance skill you can have and use Defensive Mode, then yes, I guess you could do enough low damage so that you can get the difference range, and use $ 2*d_{range}+[2, 3] $.
  • 3. Well, this is as far as I could get. I thought about Melee and also Fist Fighting (which I'm not exactly sure if this kind of damage is blocked by both Armor and Shield). For Melee, I've been messing around with some simple formulas (simple math) and it is pretty accurate (mainly because of 1.1).

I see.

Are you usually invited to private test servers? In case you are not, would you like to be invited this time? I cannot promise you'll be invited, but I could try. :)

Hunter of Dragoes (Talk · Contribs · Admins) - 01:16, April 9, 2016 (UTC)

RaymondTFR (talk) 02:06, April 9, 2016 (UTC)

Oh, actually there is a "way" to determine if the armor value of a weak creature is below some range. Let's take for example a creature of 25 hitpoints; now, if you use the Trap item on that creature, and after a lot of tests you always get 25 damage, that is, it does not reduce anything, than you can infer that that creature has an armor value in the range [0, 7], because Trap deals const. damage of 30, so:

  • For an armor value of [6, 7], the max. reduction is 5, so that would give you: trap dmg - max. reduct. = 30 - 5 = 25 hp (either the creature dies, or the max. reduction is exactly the same as the creature's hp, and it dies)
  • For an armor value of [4, 5], the max. reduction is 3, so that would give you: 30 - 3 = 27 hp (creature dies)
  • For an armor value of [1, 3], the max. reduction is 1, so that would give you: 30 - 1 = 29 hp (creature dies)

Now, let's say there's this Frog of 25 hp, and an armor value of [8, 9].

  • We would know its armor value right away, because the max. reduction is 7, so that would give us: 30 - 7 = 23 (creature is still alive, with 2 hp less), and you would know the armor value right away.

I hope I didn't do any mistake :D, by the way, that page is still pending for changes and improvements, and more things to be added that I learn each day when I test things :D.

No, I'm not, I'm a new contributor :P. Yes, I would like to, that would be great, thanks :D. Well, if I am invited, I'll make sure to gather all armor, resistances data!

Yes, I know, but weak creatures tend to be weak, i.e., they have low armor values. And knowing an interval is not of much use.

Ok, I need your character name. If you don't want to write it down here, you can try to catch me on Celesta.

Hunter of Dragoes (Talk · Contribs · Admins) - 06:20, April 9, 2016 (UTC)

RaymondTFR (talk) 06:30, April 9, 2016 (UTC) Hey! I'll write it here. Its Alodielan Knight, from Harmonia.

I'll let you know if I manage to get you invited.

Hunter of Dragoes (Talk · Contribs · Admins) - 06:53, April 9, 2016 (UTC)

You're in. :)

Hunter of Dragoes (Talk · Contribs · Admins) - 18:21, April 9, 2016 (UTC)

RaymondTFR (talk) 23:10, April 9, 2016 (UTC)

That is great, thank you! I'm looking forward to gather data from the new creatures!!


Hey, I hope this edit didn't change the meaning of what you said. Can you review it please? If I understood correctly, say there are 4 damage values:
$ d1 = 1 $

$ d2 = d1 \cdot 1.2 $

$ d3 = d2 \cdot 1.2 $

$ d4 = d3 \cdot (r \cdot d3) $

where: $ 0.01 \leq r \leq 1.2 $

-- Bennie (talk ~ fellows) 10:49, May 22, 2016 (UTC)

RaymondTFR (talk) 13:29, May 22, 2016 (UTC) Hello Bennie, actually it did change a little (Envenom, Inflict Wound also need a fix), though it certainly needed a better rewording. So, I'll present some data and explain it thoroughly so that you can make the necessary changes. Remember, that this research data is solely based on this last Testserver.

For the spell Curse:

Since this spell uses a series of constant values, we can represent most values in a list, like this:

Damage = (2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 12, 14, 17, 21, 25, 30, 36, 43, 52, 62, 74, 89, 107, 128, 154, ...)

Let's take for example a character of Level 259 and Magic Level 38. The minimum damage this character dealt was 36. On the other hand, the maximum damage this character dealt was 52. Now, you see, the maximum damage 52 is actually the last dreadful peak.

The next damage value that will occur right after the last dreadful peak, is this last dreadful peak value multiplied a by a percentage P, a percentage which is in the very same interval you mentioned, that is, from 1% to 120%.

Now, the last value you will get after your last dreadful peak is multiplied by that percentage P is actually the final dreadful peak.

Let's say the random value chosen for P was 0.1 (10%). Reminding that the last dreadful peak (the maximum damage) is 52. The final dreadful peak is: $ last_dreadful_peak * P => 52 * 0.1 = 5.2 = 5 $

The damage list would then look like this:

Damage = (..., 36, 43, 52, 52 * P) => (..., 36, 43, 52, 5)

The last dreadful peak (or the maximum damage) is 52, and the final dreadful peak (the value that comes right after the maximum damage) is 5.

For the spell Envenom

The current description part: It does only half of the damage it would do to creatures, to players. If the target is neutral to earth damage, then the damage ranges from 1 to 19 and may occur more than one time, in a fixed minimum/maximum range of occurrences.

The correct description should be: If the target is neutral to earth damage, then it does only half of the damage it would do to creatures, to players. The damage values ranging from 1 to 19 may occur more than one time, in a fixed minimum/maximum range of occurrences.

What I meant with from 1 to 19... is this. Let's say a ED can deal a maximum of 33 damage, and he cast the spell on a creature or a player with neutral resistance to earth damage.

Lets say, now, that the randomly-chosen start damage was indeed the same as the maximum damage, that is 33. Let's suppose that this damage list is exactly how it played out:

Damage = (33, 31, 30, 29, 28, 26, 24, 23, 21, 20, 19, 19, 18, 17, 16, 16, 15, ...)

Looking at this incomplete damage list above you can see that any damage value in the interval [20, 33] only repeats itself one time, and one time only. But, from [15, 19] there are some values that occur more than one time, such as 19 (occurs 2 times), and 16 (also occurs 2 times). All damage values in the interval [1, 19] have a fixed min/max range of occurrences (that is randomly chosen). For example, the values ranging from 19 to 10 can occur a maximum of only 2 times.

Similarly, for the spell Inflict Wound.

The current description part: It does only one-fourth of damage to players, from the amount of damage it does to creatures. If the target is neutral to physical damage, then the damage ranges from 1 to 19 and may occur more than one time, in a fixed minimum/maximum range of occurrences.

The correct description should be: If the target is neutral to physical damage, then it does only one-fourth of damage to players, from the amount of damage it does to creatures. The damage values ranging from 1 to 19 may occur more than one time, in a fixed minimum/maximum range of occurrences.

Private Test Server - Winter Update 2016

Hey RaymondTFR, would you like to be invited for the next private test server?
You did a good job last time!

Hunter of Dragoes (Talk · Contribs · Admins) - 22:58, October 10, 2016 (UTC)

RaymondTFR (talk) 01:32, October 11, 2016 (UTC)

Hey Hunter! Yes, I'd like to be invited to the Winter Update. I really hope they add new creatures to the game, it was really fun researching the creatures from the previous update :D.

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