Talk:Administrator Team

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Revamp - Template:Infobox Item
Hi guys,

Here's my first installment of a huge restructuring of our templates:
 * User:Sixorish/Item2
 * User:Sixorish/Item2/Axe (compare: Axe)
 * User:Sixorish/Item2/Pair of Soft Boots (compare: Pair of Soft Boots)

These templates are subject to change. I'm open to any suggestions.

-- Sixorish (talk) 07:37, January 11, 2015 (UTC)

I definately like the better way of using horizontal space, but I must admit it takes some time to find each piece of info (obviously because they are placed in a different spot and I'm not used to this). Do I have to reload css, because I see almost no layout atm? -- Bennie (talk ~ fellows) 12:48, January 11, 2015 (UTC)

I can't imagine why the CSS wouldn't load for you. Here's what you should see:

The key features are:
 * Short key/value pairs are displayed in a table to the right. This allows more space for the other content, like notes, to flow around it.
 * Trade tables are displayed alongside each other. I think this is very important because currently you have to check the label, whereas people will eventually get a feel for buyfrom/sellto based on its position (left or right).
 * It uses more logical structure/elements. I think this is important because search engines will treat our content differently depending on the elements we use in our pages.

With all that said, I'm not an experienced web designer. I think the structure of the page is better but I don't have a good feel for what looks good and is intuitive to use. I got feedback from my friends and adjusted it until they were tired of telling me they didn't like it. I don't know if they genuinely hated it or if they were too adapted to the current layout which we've had for years. What I do know is: the current layout is inadequate, outdated, and doesn't address our needs since we've moved to Wikia (and began using their skin). -- Sixorish (talk) 14:12, January 11, 2015 (UTC)

I agree with your friends that it could use improvement, but this already is definitely way better than what we use now. -- Wouterboy (talk) 14:26, January 11, 2015 (UTC)

I agree that it is better use of space and it will take time to get used to. If you plan to try a few different layouts then we should do a poll to see which is most useful/appealing.

Besides structure my biggest concern would be that we still have a lot of information available. Your Soft Boots example currently does not have the classes/types, transferable, implemented version date, the tables for Boots and all Items, and maybe a few others. I know these can be added in anytime but i was curious if you left them out intentionally or not. I prefer to maintain all info but they do not need to be in the same structure, necessarily.

Side note that this reminded me of: At some point i want to add a basic template or update the current one for the Update/X.XX pages and redo the main Update page with a table using said template.

--DM ><((°> Contribs <°))>< talk to me 21:52, January 11, 2015 (UTC)

Thanks I added transferable and classification rows in the table. I decided not to include itemclass because primarytype implies (or is meant to imply) itemclass. The template could still use it 'behind the scenes' of course. However, maybe something to think about later is a change to the classifications, because they don't always have a shared concept ("Plants, Animal Products, Food and Drink" is a valid itemclass, when its name is just a list of all constituents...)

Another thing: this change will involve templating the droppedby parameter. I think this is the best way to go because it would enforce a standard to be used within the templates. This is the best option for creating a list instead of formatted links, other methods would involve complex string functions which gets hairy and is harder to use/maintain.

Also this new layout should be easier to adapt to changes, like mobile devices and skin adjustments. I thought Wikia was enabling a fluid layout on all wikis but that doesn't seem to have happened. If it does, we'll at least be more able to adapt to it.

-- Sixorish (talk) 08:12, January 12, 2015 (UTC)

I have the feeling you're in the right way, Six. Nice job so far! I'll try to catch you online.

Hunter of Dragoes (Talk  · Contribs  · Admins ) - 09:03, January 12, 2015 (UTC)

With Dragoes' help I have changed some of the styles. Please check the pages again and tell me what you think. The blue background seems to have made a huge difference. -- Sixorish (talk) 13:16, January 12, 2015 (UTC)

Looks A LOT better now, I'm starting to like it. Some questions: -- Bennie (talk ~ fellows) 13:39, January 12, 2015 (UTC)
 * What do you mean with "status: active"? That it is obtainable in game and not unobtainable or deprecated or from an event?
 * bought for has two dashes, shouldn't that be converted to something else (I think we have something else in the current template), some text I mean.
 * The text in the dropped by box is considerably larger than the other text, I don't like that (it gives emphasis, which is not needed or wanted)
 * also about the dropped by, what about the loot statistics data? Will the percent values be visible later on? (I imagine this javascript is set to an id/class you don't use currently).
 * I would like a background color behind the properties table to the right. Borders and/or background colors give structure to a page. It should be easy to distinguish the different blocks of information.
 * Maybe also a little background color (rounded) to the headers. Or a border bottom.

-- Sixorish (talk) 14:49, January 12, 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, status will mean just that - if it's obtainable, if it's deprecated, or if it's a TS feature (like Test Server Assistant).
 * I'll remove that.
 * Yes the JS will need to be adjusted to account for the new structure. I'll look into that when the template is finalized/agreed on.
 * I've tried a few different colors but I can't find one that fits. I think the bold property names distinguish the table from the rest of the content.
 * I'll add a gold border to the bottom of each section header. However, I don't think any color really complements gold well to use as a background color.

Some ideas we had:

For items:
 * Add the following parameters:
 * pickupable (binary parameter; so we can merge Template:Infobox Item and Template:Infobox Object);
 * walkable (binary parameter);
 * market (binary parameter);
 * axeMod, clubMod, distMod, mlMod, swordMod, shieldMod, speedMod (skill modifiers);
 * immobile (binary parameter; if yes, diplay Moveable: no);
 * walkingspeed (% of base speed; for floors);
 * height, width (1=32px);
 * blocksmissile (binary parameter);
 * blockspath (binary parameter);
 * holdsliquid (binary parameter);
 * hangable (binary parameter);
 * rotatable (binary or 2/4?);
 * floorchange (binary parameter);
 * ingameheight (height value);
 * spriteID (to detect items sharing the same sprite);
 * effect (effect name; if an item displays an effect when used ingame, this info should be on the item page);
 * readable (binary parameter);
 * rewritable (binary parameter);
 * decaytime;
 * decayedfrom (item name);
 * decaysto (item name);
 * changesto (item name; if an item changes into another when "used");
 * displaytime (binary parameter; items that display Tibian time when "used").
 * Only display npcprice, npcvalue, stackable, transferable, value and weight if pickupable = yes;
 * Only display changesto, decaytime, decayedfrom, decaysto, destructable, displaytime, floorchange, hangable, holdsliquid, ingameheight, rotatable, walkingspeed, writable and skill modifiers if corresponding values exist;
 * Only display blocksmissile, blockspath, immobile and walkable values if pickupable = no;
 * Review all existing strings on attributes field and create new parameters;
 * Currently, attributes is displayed in parentheses after item name, this should be reviewed.

For monsters:
 * Add the following parameters:
 * blood (blood type: Fire, Poison, Bones, Blood?);
 * corpse (corpse name);
 * raceNumber;
 * outfit;
 * pushCreatures (binary parameter);
 * seeInvisible (binary parameter);
 * lifeDrainImmune (binary parameter);
 * paralyzeImmune (binary parameter);
 * rewardSystem (binary parameter).

For NPCs:
 * Add the following parameters:
 * outfit (in addition to race);
 * radius.

Hunter of Dragoes (Talk  · Contribs  · Admins ) - 15:24, January 12, 2015 (UTC)


 * We can automatically add many of these parameters on pages that have an ID. Therefore, we should add ID parameter to the remaining items and to objects (this one might be tricky).
 * Hunter of Dragoes (Talk  · Contribs  · Admins ) - 02:32, January 13, 2015 (UTC)

--- Check out table headers which are links, like on Boat. The blue links are barely readable in contrast with the blue headers. --DM ><((°> Contribs <°))>< talk to me 03:29, January 13, 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. I changed the link text on the table headers. -- Sixorish (talk) 07:51, January 13, 2015 (UTC)

Loot% on items and creatures should be working, but it depends on JS wgTitle (e.g. Axe vs. Sixorish/Item2/Axe) so it will not work on those pages until they go live.

Here's what will change:
 * Template:Infobox Item
 * Gains parameters:
 * article
 * plural
 * actualname
 * pickupable
 * Parameter changes:
 * droppedby must now use
 * sounds must now use
 * Template:Infobox Creature
 * Gains parameters:
 * article
 * plural
 * actualname
 * spawntype
 * Parameter changes:
 * loot must now use which should use
 * sounds must now use
 * Template:Infobox Spell
 * Gains parameters:
 * element
 * Parameter changes:
 * Template:Infobox NPC
 * Gains parameters:
 * posx
 * posy
 * posz
 * street
 * gender
 * race
 * Parameter changes:
 * sounds must now use

The pages that will be changed are: Other templates will be untouched for now. I'd like it if the item template could support objects so I have avoided them for the time being.
 * Template:Infobox Item &rarr; User:Sixorish/Item2 (Axe, Panda Teddy, Pair of Soft Boots, Magic Sulphur)
 * Template:Infobox Creature &rarr; User:Sixorish/Creature2 (Rat, Demon, Hellgorak)
 * Template:Infobox NPC &rarr; User:Sixorish/NPC2 (Sam)
 * Template:Infobox Spell &rarr; User:Sixorish/Spell2 (Find Person)

Are there any objections to this? If there are no objections I will work on a script to make all necessary changes before the templates can be used. The templates still need some edits to accommodate for transclusion but otherwise they are done.

-- Sixorish (talk) 13:15, January 16, 2015 (UTC)

I agree with the technical changes and I think the overall layout of the new templates looks good. Some minor tweaks in colors/layout are still possible, but that can be done in a later stage as well. Some remaining questions: -- Bennie (talk ~ fellows) 16:53, January 16, 2015 (UTC)
 * The sidebar disappeared, as well as the creatureclass or itemclass templates. Is that intended?
 * I'm a bit scared people will be mad about the change, is there anything we can do about that? Warn people a change is coming and ask for feedback? Do a poll, give the community a feeling they have a say? I don't know.

Yes there probably will be a bit of negativity, just because it's a change and nobody likes change. With that said I don't think a poll will be representative of the layout's value, because everyone will vote that they don't like it without considering the possible advantages of the change. Besides, we'd have to alter the main page for a poll because any other page will get very little attention.

But of course we should ask for the users' feedback. I'll work on TibiaWiki:Projects/2015 Layout Revamp so that we can link to it in the news and ask them to post feedback on the talk page. Other than that I don't see what we can do to get good feedback on the layout. -- Sixorish (talk) 08:56, January 17, 2015 (UTC)

Oh and the sidebar is removed because that was taking up a lot of space where we didn't want that. If we decide that pages need it, we can create a list on the bottom similar to the 'dropped by' list (3-4 columns). Personally, I almost never care for "related monsters" but maybe less experienced people might, I don't know. -- Sixorish (talk) 09:29, January 17, 2015 (UTC)

I've added to the bottom of the Creature2 template and adjusted the styles a bit. Let me know if it's acceptable or any improvements that can be made. Example: User:Sixorish/Creature2/Hellgorak. -- Sixorish (talk) 17:37, January 19, 2015 (UTC)

I will start converting creatures to the new system tomorrow if there are no objections. I'd like to get this done before February because I'll have a lot less time to work on big projects. -- Sixorish (talk) 02:58, January 20, 2015 (UTC)

Yes, go ahead. Apparently there is no feedback. -- Bennie (talk ~ fellows) 08:50, January 20, 2015 (UTC)

Today I used User:SixBot to convert all of the items and creatures to use. Items and creatures might look a little odd with the sound spacing until the infobox changes are applied. Tomorrow I will edit NPCs and apply the infobox changes. Then I'll work on a script to convert the loot and droppedby of creatures and items. Hopefully it will all be done before the 24th. -- Sixorish (talk) 15:42, January 20, 2015 (UTC)

I apologize. I forgot to log in my bot account before running the script so about 1/3 NPC edits were attributed to this account and they will show on the recent changes. Anyway I've edited all NPCs to convert the sounds, which means all pages should be using within their sounds parameters. What's left to do: -- Sixorish (talk) 03:46, January 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * Replace Template:Infobox Item, Template:Infobox Creature, Template:Infobox NPC, Template:Infobox Spell.
 * Update  (creatures) and   (items)

Can you make blank edits on all affected pages (items, creatures, NPCs and spells), so they update to the new template?

Hunter of Dragoes (Talk  · Contribs  · Admins ) - 04:38, January 21, 2015 (UTC)

Can you add the link to loot statistics back to Template:Infobox Creature?

<font color="Blue">Hunter of Dragoes (<font color="Blue">Talk  · <font color="Blue">Contribs  · <font color="Blue">Admins ) - 07:34, January 21, 2015 (UTC)

I don't think I can purge them through the API because we're using an outdated MW version, and I think SixBot is being rate limited with purging manually, or maybe the server has too much work to do. I'll have a look later, since most pages won't need purging at all by the time I'm done.

I've added the loot statistics link back to the creatures. Let me know if it looks odd to you. -- Sixorish (talk) 08:02, January 21, 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, it looks good.

Can you fix ?

<font color="Blue">Hunter of Dragoes (<font color="Blue">Talk  · <font color="Blue">Contribs  · <font color="Blue">Admins ) - 08:15, January 21, 2015 (UTC)

What's wrong with it? -- Sixorish (talk) 08:18, January 21, 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I was missing the message on Behavior section and didn't notice the Behavioral Properties. I have the feeling people will ignore a long list of properties. Maybe we should add some icons later?

<font color="Blue">Hunter of Dragoes (<font color="Blue">Talk  · <font color="Blue">Contribs  · <font color="Blue">Admins ) - 08:24, January 21, 2015 (UTC)

I think people will eventually get accustomed to the list of properties, as long as it is organized. However, I've added the text back because I didn't mean to remove that. Also I adjusted the text that is displayed in the table when a "rough estimate" is provided instead of a value. -- Sixorish (talk) 08:40, January 21, 2015 (UTC)

Looks really cool Sixorish! I created a feedback thread on tibia.com, here.

One thing I think could use a little improvement, are the weakness/strength % bars which show the percentage value. I like how they show in one glance the value because of their size, but it would be cool if they could somehow reprecent their element maybe? Or some other color tweak to show the gradient in values in colors (what you have in excel, where low values are red and high values green or something). I'm not sure what would look good. -- Bennie (talk ~ fellows) 09:30, January 21, 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for adding it back, Six. Good idea about the feedback thread, Bennie. I've thought the same about the gradient bars. Other thing we could do is to show the differences from the original/base hit. All bars would have their origins aligned, bars going to the left would be positive differences (>100%), and bars going to the left would be negative differences (<100%). However, I don't think it would fit in the template.

<font color="Blue">Hunter of Dragoes (<font color="Blue">Talk  · <font color="Blue">Contribs  · <font color="Blue">Admins ) - 09:47, January 21, 2015 (UTC)

One thing I would like point out is that the articles are missing in items' new flavourtexts. This results in lines such as "You see axe ring (axe fighting +4)." -- Wouterboy (talk) 13:27, January 21, 2015 (UTC)

@Bennie: I changed it to use +-% for the resistance bars. I'd like it if the properties table kept the absolute % (105% instead of +5%).

Regarding the colors: ''' I t h i n k a d d i n g o t h e r c o l o r s w i l l b e a n e y e s o r e. I p i c k e d b l u e b e c a u s e i t b l e n d s i n w e l l w i t h t h e b a c k g r o u n d a n d i t ' s n o t t o o e m p h a t i c, b u t i f w e h a d g r e e n f o r e a r t h a n d r e d f o r f i r e , i t w o u l d d i s t r a c t t h e u s e r f r o m t h e o t h e r c o n t e n t a n d / o r j u s t g e n e r a l l y f e e l o u t o f p l a c e .''' You can try experimenting with colors if you want but I don't think it's a good idea.

@Hunter

A "whisker box"-type of thing would be really cool but probably a lot less understood than the current graph. -- Sixorish (talk) 13:31, January 21, 2015 (UTC)

@Wouterboy

Thanks. Those pages are meant to have article/actualname/plural but the "look" template is supposed to guess when it isn't provided. I'll fix that tomorrow probably.

-- Sixorish (talk) 13:31, January 21, 2015 (UTC)

Concerning item articles and actual names, did you use the list of limited items to automatically add those parameters?

<font color="Blue">Hunter of Dragoes (<font color="Blue">Talk  · <font color="Blue">Contribs  · <font color="Blue">Admins ) - 14:00, January 21, 2015 (UTC)

I haven't added article/actualname/plural to any items yet. According to TibiaWiki:Data/Item/article the only item to have  is Panda Teddy. -- Sixorish (talk) 14:07, January 21, 2015 (UTC)

Sixorish, why is the effect parameter not included on Spell pages? Just a mistake or an idea? Maybe colored resistance bars are not so good, but something with those icons maybe? What about this: User:Bennie/resistances? -- Bennie (talk ~ fellows) 14:24, January 21, 2015 (UTC)

Looks good Bennie, do you want to add it?

Also how is the background/border of the tabular data? -- Sixorish (talk) 14:29, January 21, 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I added it. The border looks cool, the background color is too dark to comfortably read black text. A little lighter and then it'll be awesome. -- Bennie (talk ~ fellows) 14:42, January 21, 2015 (UTC)

Are you guys aware of any monster that has a life drain damage modifier different from +0% and -100%? Some creatures used to be immune to life drain even before the implementation of damage modifiers. I wonder if they have really changed it or if it's still an immune or not-immune case.

<font color="Blue">Hunter of Dragoes (<font color="Blue">Talk  · <font color="Blue">Contribs  · <font color="Blue">Admins ) - 14:55, January 21, 2015 (UTC) - NPC image on The Queen Of The Banshees (longest name I can think of) doesn't fit. #twbox-image max-width 64px can be removed to fix, but might push the title too much to the right. NPC images are kind of irregular because the names make the image dimensions non-standard. -- Bennie (talk ~ fellows) 15:17, January 21, 2015 (UTC)

I've removed the max-width/height from #twbox-image and added it to a.new descendents. I mostly wanted to limit the effects of missing orange image links to a 64x64px box. -- Sixorish (talk) 15:28, January 21, 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Another question, see Lou Toose. If buysell is set to no, the div id=npc-trades should not be displayed, right? But here it does. -- Bennie (talk ~ fellows) 15:40, January 21, 2015 (UTC)

Actually it is meant to be displayed, except NPCs who don't buy/sell anything should have "--" as their buy/sell. I wanted to be very clear and say: no there isn't missing information, this NPC really doesn't buy or sell anything. -- Sixorish (talk) 15:47, January 21, 2015 (UTC)

I added a very small script to common.js which will sort the creature resistances from highest to lowest when the document is loaded. Is this better? I didn't want to at first because I was afraid the random positioning would be awkward. -- Sixorish (talk) 02:29, January 22, 2015 (UTC)

I don't think the sorting is really needed, with no sorting viewers can get used to always see fire as 4th bar for example. With sorting you'll always look at the top bar and then look which element it is.

I do like the ideas proposed on tibia.com by Olixin but also Waverly, to have the resistance bars go left or right from a fixed point, denoting weak or strong. I still sometimes confuse if + or - is weak or strong, having this left or right by default would be useful. What do you think? -- Bennie (talk ~ fellows) 11:59, January 22, 2015 (UTC)

I think there are a few issues with this: -- Sixorish (talk) 12:34, January 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * I think the bar being far from its label will cause readability issues.
 * In such a graph we would still need to label which side is strong and which side is weak. This is why I prefer "absolute" percentages like 105% over relative percentages like +5%. If the main reason for preferring the outward-moving graph is because it's intuitive then it will be no more intuitive than if we colored bars red/green (for 99%- and 100%+) because that's the only "intuitive" feature of the graph.
 * Strong to is bound to 100% (immune at 100% resistance) while weak to is unbound. Since we work in a limited space we would use percentages to determine where the center (0) is. I don't think it will be intuitive at all if 0 is not near the center as it would be for many stronger creatures.

Mm okay. One other thing Creature Artworks are removed from the creature infobox. I kinda liked them, can they come back? -- Bennie (talk ~ fellows) 13:53, January 23, 2015 (UTC)

I'll work out a place we can put it. I think it will go nicely in the notes next to the tibia.com description of pages. -- Sixorish (talk) 07:25, January 24, 2015 (UTC)

Ok cool. Some stuff: -- Bennie (talk ~ fellows) 22:18, January 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * droppedby is literally included with 3 curly brackets if empty, e.g. Fireball Rune
 * The related items section lists give a dpl warning if no results are found (noresultsheader could be filled)

Is there a way you could add some 'special' u-words to the template to be recognised as needing the 'a' as article (for items such as Used Candelabrum and Unity Charm)? The template isn't doing this yet, I noticed. Also, do all plurals need to be supplied manually? -- Wouterboy (talk) 10:52, January 27, 2015 (UTC)

This information is stored on the item pages now, it's easier that way. I had User:SixBot add article, actualname and plural params to the item pages automatically, using educated guesses as to their value (except plural which I didn't set yet, because I'm not sure how the plurals should work). -- Sixorish (talk) 11:18, January 27, 2015 (UTC)

Re: concept art - what is the plan if in the future a creature is depicted in multiple creature artworks? The old method tested if a certain filename existed which wouldn't work if there were multiple. -- Sixorish (talk) 17:24, January 29, 2015 (UTC)

We have a similar case with Yalaharian Outfits. There are 3 outfit cards for the same outfit. makes we manually add artworks. But I don't think it's an elegant solution.

<font color="Blue">Hunter of Dragoes (<font color="Blue">Talk  · <font color="Blue">Contribs  · <font color="Blue">Admins ) - 23:41, January 29, 2015 (UTC)

I've receive some feedback online. Since the title above the resistance bars is Resistances, they should be consistent: positive values meaning the creature is strong to that element, while negative values meaning it's weak to it. Either the title should be changed (to something like Element Modifiers) or the bars should be changed. Also, to make it clearer, instead of displaying +##% and -##% it could display ##% weak and ##% strong. 0% could simply be displayed as Neutral, and 100% strong as Immune.

<font color="Blue">Hunter of Dragoes (<font color="Blue">Talk  · <font color="Blue">Contribs  · <font color="Blue">Admins ) - 02:11, February 2, 2015 (UTC)

Updates/Pre-6.0 in the items dpl list weight and droppedby are displayed as parameters for Barrel (which doesn't have a value for these parameters). I'm not sure how to fix this. -- Bennie (talk ~ fellows) 13:58, February 10, 2015 (UTC)

It should now display nothing if the weight is not present. -- Sixorish (talk) 22:34, February 10, 2015 (UTC)

Outfiter
Hey!

Could you guys change ids of 3 mounts into names in Outfiter? I have seen it has been updated, but they remain untouched. I assume it would require only: Replacing 685 with Shadow_Hart, 686 with Black_Stag and 687 with Emperor_Deer in Outfiter/Code_Template & Outfiter/Code plus renaming pages/editing first lines(just id values) here - 685, here - 686 and here - 687. --Cauli92 (talk) 15:48, January 22, 2015 (UTC)

I renamed the 3 pages but not sure if deleting and creating them fresh is necessary or not. They are not loading in the 3 browsers i tried, but that happened last time i added an outfit so we shall see when the server catches up. --DM ><((°> Contribs <°))>< talk to me 03:32, January 23, 2015 (UTC)

It seems to be working correctly now, thanks a lot! -- Cauli92 (talk) 15:41, January 23, 2015 (UTC)

Note that the id on each page had to be changed from the number to the name (e.g. 686 > Black_Stag), as done by Sixorish. --DM ><((°> Contribs <°))>< talk to me 17:23, January 24, 2015 (UTC)

Hey, I know, I did mention that in my first message about it, it's right after renaming the pages. -- Cauli92 (talk) 18:01, January 24, 2015 (UTC)

Updates/8.54
Can you guys check what's wrong with Updates/8.54? On Monobook, the logo is misplaced and there's that "Node-count limit exceeded" error. On Wikia skin, it doesn't even load after last edit.

<font color="Blue">Hunter of Dragoes (<font color="Blue">Talk  · <font color="Blue">Contribs  · <font color="Blue">Admins ) - 15:00, January 23, 2015 (UTC)

Um, I didn't think this would cause a problem. Apparently the new templates on our pages (Template:Dropped By and Template:Loot Table) are adding a lot of preprocessor nodes and it stops expanding templates when that limit has been exceeded... I'll have a look at it tomorrow. -- Sixorish (talk) 16:30, January 23, 2015 (UTC)

I'm honestly confused here. On User:Sixorish/bottleneck/items I tested this and the current revision "fixes" the problem by changing how DPL collects the data. If you use a phantom template (Template:Infobox Item/Update) it adds almost no preprocessor nodes whereas if you instruct DPL to get the data itself using Template:DPLPARM Item.include it uses more than the server can handle. -- Sixorish (talk) 06:08, January 24, 2015 (UTC)

I've applied the changes to the DPL parameter templates for items. The page limits are now at: However, this update page takes a lot of time to render. Not sure if it was like that before. It might just be because that update introduced a lot of things. -- Sixorish (talk) 07:28, January 24, 2015 (UTC)

Mm, it is fast enough for me. Btw, the arena bosses (and probably all creatures with no loot have an empty Template:Loot Table in their loot parameter. E.g. Menace. Maybe fill it with two dashes and display "No loot." or something instead? -- Bennie (talk ~ fellows) 10:51, January 24, 2015 (UTC)

It's fast when rendering after it's been cached. But update pages are meant to be edited a lot (mostly before/shortly after they're released) so I'd like to think performance when editing is a big deal. -- Sixorish (talk) 11:07, January 24, 2015 (UTC)

As for the "No loot." thing, I will add a message for the time being. In the future I'd like to code something to make adding loot easier: a JS-based loot adder/remover which is why I wanted all creatures to have. But for the time being we have other things to work on. -- Sixorish (talk) 11:12, January 24, 2015 (UTC)

The same error is happening on List of Creatures.

<font color="Blue">Hunter of Dragoes (<font color="Blue">Talk  · <font color="Blue">Contribs  · <font color="Blue">Admins ) - 23:39, January 28, 2015 (UTC)

Rookgaard has also been affected by the template changes.

<font color="Blue">Hunter of Dragoes (<font color="Blue">Talk  · <font color="Blue">Contribs  · <font color="Blue">Admins ) - 23:26, February 1, 2015 (UTC)

Okay I'm stupid. The dropped by template transcludes all the creatures on that list for no reason, so instead of fixing the problem (which I thought was a limit we just had to deal with) the problem can be solved by removing that transclusion, since it only uses the creature's name. -- Sixorish (talk) 06:10, February 2, 2015 (UTC)

TibiaWiki:Data
Hi guys,

Does anyone here have any interest in using TibiaWiki:Data?

These pages contain static data from our templates and is updated by User:SixBot. I've also added a tabular version which can be found by appending "/table" to page names (I may not update the tabular versions as often because it takes a bit longer).

These pages could be used for fast verification of the validity of our pages, for example I found and fixed this problem after checking the data.

Basically it's a quicker way to check the values of a lot of parameters. Each page contains data for 1 parameter (I don't think people want to download the entire wiki's data for just 2 pieces of info).

Here are some data pages for example:
 * TibiaWiki:Data/Item/npcvalue, and /table.
 * TibiaWiki:Data/Item/sellto, and /table.

This combination of data could be used for Calculators, currently it uses a parsed version of a DPL list which is time-consuming to update. Of course it has applications. But does anyone actually have an interest in using it? If so then I can write some help pages & add the script to get this data to Common.js. Since I'll be studying in February I won't have a lot of time to use it myself, so, if nobody else wants to use it I just won't update it. -- Sixorish (talk) 12:55, January 24, 2015 (UTC)

I don't think I'll use that in the near future, but the possibility looks promising! Good luck with your studying ;) -- Bennie (talk ~ fellows) 12:07, January 25, 2015 (UTC)

It seems promising, indeed.

By the way, have you guys noticed that Calculators isn't working properly?

<font color="Blue">Hunter of Dragoes (<font color="Blue">Talk  · <font color="Blue">Contribs  · <font color="Blue">Admins ) - 00:26, January 26, 2015 (UTC)

Hm, I thought it was just the images but the whole thing is broken. Well, I fixed the images which was bugged because of a Wikia change to image URLs, and I'll look at the rest of it when I have some more time. -- Sixorish (talk) 02:54, January 26, 2015 (UTC)

More bot edits
SixBot is currently editing every item page with a single  to add the following parameters: He will also check and fix anything else that is verifiable on the dat, like stackable and lightcolor/radius. -- Sixorish (talk) 14:46, January 27, 2015 (UTC)
 * (if fluid container)
 * (if immobile)
 * (if hangable)
 * (if blocks missiles)
 * (if blocks path)
 * (if walkable)
 * (if usable)
 * (if rotatable)
 * (if has map color)
 * (if has map color)

Due to a bug SixBot wasn't adding or fixing some parameters, like usable. I've also added some checks, e.g. SixBot will remove hangable if it is not hangable, remove volume if it is not a container, and others. He'll also be adding a new parameter,, to all items. -- Sixorish (talk) 13:00, January 29, 2015 (UTC)

Had to stop SixBot to check out a possible bug.
 * Scroll has the wrong itemid. (should be 2815)

Will resume editing and fix this one later. -- Sixorish (talk) 13:10, January 29, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, 347 is Scroll (TBI)'s ID.

<font color="Blue">Hunter of Dragoes (<font color="Blue">Talk  · <font color="Blue">Contribs  · <font color="Blue">Admins ) - 13:19, January 29, 2015 (UTC)

Updating Data/Item/* and rerunning the script to fix some bugs that occurred before. -- Sixorish (talk) 08:47, January 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * Readable is gone. Writable (wiki) = readable (dat reader), rewritable (wiki) = writable (dat reader), I didn't realize this.
 * Fixing errors caused by assuming readable, writable and rewritable were separate.
 * Anything else that the bot picks up that it missed before.

What an odd word "marketable", I didn't know it really existed. But it's cool you're adding it, I would be interested in a list of items which can't be traded on the market. -- Bennie (talk ~ fellows) 09:13, January 30, 2015 (UTC)

Marketable means something other than what we're using for, but it's understandable. If we decide something else is better it can be changed, but for now, no reason to stall edits just because something may not be perfect.

I think I am done with mass edits for the time being. Here are some things I'd like to do in the future though:
 * Order parameters within the source of pages (there are a lot of new parameters).
 * Merge items and objects.
 * Fix any inconsistent parameter spacing.
 * Create rules for parameters, e.g. armor can only be a number, and generate regular reports of invalid parameters so that we can find potential issues.
 * Upload files with "Item ID x.gif" for all item IDs, as a reference to upload a file under Item Name.gif

I will run the script maybe once a week or on request to update any info with changes/added IDs. So, if you go looking for IDs, feel free to save time by ignoring things that can be obtained from the dat.

-- Sixorish (talk) 09:47, January 30, 2015 (UTC)

Creature Descriptions
Errors: Hi,

I will add creature descriptions to our pages taken from tibia.com; however, since they don't have the same naming conventions as we do for the website, there are likely to be a few errors in my automatic guesses. I would appreciate if anyone could scan the list for errors. -- Sixorish (talk) 10:32, January 31, 2015 (UTC)

I... I don't really know what you mean. I hope this is helpful:

Errors:
 * cultacolyte (instead of 'acolyteofthecult');
 * frogazure (instead of 'azurefrog');
 * wraith (instead of 'betrayedwraith');
 * butterflypurple (instead of 'butterflies');
 * charlatan (instead of 'corymcharlatan');
 * skirmisher (instead of 'corymskirmisher');
 * vanguard (instead of 'corymvanguard');
 * cultpriest (instead of 'enlightenedofthecult');
 * lostdwarfbasher (instead of 'lostbasher');
 * lostdwarfhusher (instead of 'losthusher');
 * earthelementalmassive (instead of 'massiveearthelemental');
 * energyelementalmassive (instead of 'massiveenergyelemental');
 * hellfireelemental (instead of 'massivefireelemental');
 * waterelementalmassive (instead of 'massivewaterelemental');
 * cultadept (instead of 'adeptofthecult');
 * cultnovice (instead of 'noviceofthecult');
 * seacrest (instead of 'seacrestserpent');
 * viscountmanbat (instead of 'viciousmanbat');
 * wormpriest (instead of 'wormpriestess').

Also:
 * In the list of butterflies in the first column the Butterfly (Purple) is excluded.
 * The Novice of the Cult is listed twice (the first time followed by 'cultadept', and the second time by 'cultnovice'.
 * Perhaps change 'Enraged Crystal Golems' in the second column to 'Crystal Golems'?
 * The plural of 'Enlightened of the Cult' should simply be 'Enlightened of the Cult'.

Sorry I guess that is a little confusing. Others: -- Sixorish (talk) 12:24, January 31, 2015 (UTC)
 * The errors you listed are not errors, that's the name of the "race" you would put in tibia.com to get their profile, e.g. http://www.tibia.com/library/?subtopic=creatures&race=cultacolyte. Nothing will be changed in that column because that column is just the name for linking purposes.
 * Fixed.
 * Novices being listed twice is indeed an error, thanks.
 * This is the title according to tibia.com. In the past I think it was Crystal Golems but it was changed.
 * This is also the title according to tibia.com, so it should be consistent.

Ahh, alright. I thought the idea was to have the names in the Race URL column updated so they reflect how the wiki names the creatures. On another note, are you sure we should list Damaged Crystal Golem as a creature fitting the description of Enraged Crystal Golem? Most of that description can be applied to the Enraged ones only. Also, I think that if we take over 'Enlighteneds of the Cult' as our plural, we will look very unprofessional. Cipsoft took it a little too far by pluralising an adjective (seriously Cip?). Anyway, for some reason they use correct plurals in the actual description, but in the two stats paragraphs they don't. -- Wouterboy (talk) 12:44, January 31, 2015 (UTC)

Maybe you're right about the crystal golems.

It can be changed on our part if we desire it, but does it affect our professional image or CipSoft's? As said, this will only be used to display: "&mdash;Tibia Website - Enlighteneds Of The Cult". Most likely CipSoft will fix it sooner or later. If it is preferred we can just have our plurals displayed and not worry about adding a parameter for the "bestiary title". -- Sixorish (talk) 13:01, January 31, 2015 (UTC)

I thought we would take over all of their plurals and therefore look unprofessional together with them, sorry. Now that I understand it correctly it sounds good (and yeah, I also don't see the necessity of adding a "bestiary title" parameter). -- Wouterboy (talk) 13:29, January 31, 2015 (UTC)

I'll add them all to the creature pages shortly. Damaged Crystal Golem will not get one. This will introduce the parameters  (cultacolyte) and   (the description) to Template:Infobox Creature, which will display the descriptions in a standardized way. Since the only opinion I've received was in favor of dropping the  parameter (Acolytes Of The Cult) they will not use that and prefer our plural, actualname or name parameters. -- Sixorish (talk) 14:35, January 31, 2015 (UTC)

Okay User:SixBot is adding the bestiary information. I made some changes so that the text doesn't consume too much space, because some pages, like Rot Elemental and Medusa, have a lot of text and I think we shouldn't push the other content down too far. -- Sixorish (talk) 15:41, January 31, 2015 (UTC)

Actually I've gone ahead and removed the "title" completely so that it just says "&mdash;Tibia Library". None of our parameters are good for referencing the Tibia library:
 * name can have disambiguation terms, e.g. Fish (Creature).
 * actualname and plural are lowercase, which looks out of place.

Tomorrow I will look at ordering our template parameters. -- Sixorish (talk) 16:05, January 31, 2015 (UTC)

I've just reported the "enlighteneds" case as well as the name "crystal golems" on Enraged Crystal Golems page. I don't think they would change URLs, so I won't report them.

<font color="Blue">Hunter of Dragoes (<font color="Blue">Talk  · <font color="Blue">Contribs  · <font color="Blue">Admins ) - 02:38, February 1, 2015 (UTC)

Redirecting plurals to articles
Hi guys. I told Hunter to post here but he seems to be putting that off.

Another fansite administrator would like for us to redirect plurals of creature names to that creature's page. So for example enlighteneds of the cult would redirect to Enlightened of the Cult. They want this so that they can link to us without having to create e.g. a table to translate kill statistics name -> wiki name.

Are there any objections to this? Normally I would be against it simply because normal users may never use these redirects, but on the other hand it is unlikely that any other pages will take use the plural names.

If there are no objections I'll set up the redirects using User:SixBot.

-- Sixorish (talk) 08:07, March 11, 2015 (UTC)

Here are the pages that SixBot will edit if we agree to this: User:Sixorish/Redirects. On the bottom is a list of pages that won't be edited as they already contain articles: redirects or otherwise. -- Sixorish (talk) 09:11, March 11, 2015 (UTC)

Agreed.

<font color="Blue">Hunter of Dragoes (<font color="Blue">Talk  · <font color="Blue">Contribs  · <font color="Blue">Admins ) - 12:22, March 11, 2015 (UTC)

Ok no problem, never any objections for fansites linking to us. Funny you use the Enlightened of the Cult example, with the "wrong" plural. -- Bennie (talk ~ fellows) 12:29, March 11, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah I realized that when I was writing it. Decided to go with it because it conveys the idea well: the redirection doesn't depend on what the plural should be, just what the kill statistics calls them (because they are indexing kill stats and want to link to us without fixing plurals). -- Sixorish (talk) 12:56, March 11, 2015 (UTC)

I've done what I can automatically.
 * Amazons
 * Bats
 * Bears
 * Bonelords
 * Demons
 * Dogs (redirects to Canines)
 * Dragons
 * Dwarfs (redirects to Dwarves, not Dwarf)
 * Eggs (redirects to Egg, not Egg (Creature))
 * Elves
 * Fish (plural of Fish (Creature))
 * Ghosts
 * Goblins
 * Hydras
 * Minotaurs
 * Monks
 * Necromancers
 * Orcs
 * Pillars
 * Rabbits (redirects to Glires)
 * Rats (redirects to Glires)
 * Salamanders
 * Skeletons
 * Snakes (redirects to Serpents)
 * Toads (redirects to Frogs)
 * Tortoises
 * Trolls
 * Wolves (redirects to Canines)
 * Wyrms
 * Wyverns

These pages were not edited and do not redirect to the appropriate title, but all others do. I don't know what we should do about these. -- Sixorish (talk) 08:57, March 13, 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Six. I'll talk with Sir Dzidek (Guildstats admin) about these cases, perhaps he can manually fix the links.

<font color="Blue">Hunter of Dragoes (<font color="Blue">Talk  · <font color="Blue">Contribs  · <font color="Blue">Admins ) - 03:46, March 15, 2015 (UTC)

Vandalism Mar-2015
We have had some "heavy duty" vandalism recently. I remember reading that something was disabled for the contest we had in December but i cannot recall what was done. Does anyone remember and can they turn it back on/request Wikia to turn it back on? --DM ><((°> Contribs <°))>< talk to me 17:20, March 23, 2015 (UTC)

We allowed anniversary contestants to immediately upload a picture after account creation. Hunter has already requested this be reverted, however. -- Wouterboy (talk) 17:32, March 23, 2015 (UTC)

I just noticed when I made the new page "Nanny from Hell" when I created it. It did not give a warning message on top that you get when non-whitelisted people edit excisting wiki's (example: Updates/10.78). Maybe this could be used as a possible exploid by those hacker attempts. -- Tustanuxo (talk) 11:57, May 12, 2015 (UTC)

Vandal:Brazoleq12
The user Brazoleq12 ( talk &bull; contribs &bull; [ bot contribs] &bull; [ block log] &bull; block ) has vandalized. Please review their edits and take appropriate actions if necessary.

Sincerely,

User:Cauli92

Vandal: Yorickkk & Norbertino1
The user Yorickkk ( talk &bull; contribs &bull; [ bot contribs] &bull; [ block log] &bull; block ) has vandalized. Please review their edits and take appropriate actions if necessary.

and his other acc, User:Norbertino1

Sincerely,

User:Cauli92

New Admins
Welcome to the team Cauli and Vapaus! :)

<font color="Blue">Hunter of Dragoes (<font color="Blue">Talk  · <font color="Blue">Contribs  · <font color="Blue">Admins ) - 00:05, May 7, 2015 (UTC)

Congratulations to both of you! -- Wouterboy (talk) 10:52, May 7, 2015 (UTC)

Thanks a lot guys, I hope I will cope with the admin tasks and not disappoint TibiaWiki!

-- Cauli92 (talk) 13:13, May 7, 2015 (UTC)

Thank you very much,I will try to do my best :) ~ Vapaus (talk) 14:17, May 7, 2015 (UTC)

Whitelisting?
moved from User_Talk:Cauli92 on May 8, 2015

How do I get whitelisted? I've been here for quite awhile now...

Kurrygrodan (talk) 15:56, May 8, 2015 (UTC)

Hey Kurrygrodan,

Unfortunately, I'm unable to help you in this matter as I have joined the team very recently and would prefer to not make this kind of decissions yet, as I'm not quite sure how they determine who's worthy of being whitelisted(even though your profile looks good enough for me). For that reason, I'm moving your question to Talk:Administrator Team page - the best place to ask this of question. Here, your problem has highest chances to be adressed by other Team members after one has failed.

-- Cauli92 (talk) 17:11, May 8, 2015 (UTC)

Spell changes
Hey guys,

Today I used User:SixBot to make the following changes to spell articles:
 * Some old pages used "Subclass" instead of "subclass". I fixed these.
 * Some old pages used "graphic" and almost all pages used "learnfrom", neither of which are used, so I removed them.
 * All our pages used "expLvl" which is quite nonstandard so I changed it to "levelrequired" to be in line with items' levelrequired.

I have searched for things that would break as a result of these changes, and corrected the ones that I found. Let me know if there are any broken pages as a result of these changes.

I will probably make additional changes to spells soon, e.g. removing MagLvl from spells. -- Sixorish (talk) 05:47, May 24, 2015 (UTC)

Changes made today:
 * MagLvl - gone; magic levels haven't applied to spells for years.
 * hidetemplate - only spell that used it was Convince Creature. Has no use now really.
 * Picked up some minor errors thanks to TibiaWiki:Data.

Some other questions/thoughts: -- Sixorish (talk) 11:04, May 27, 2015 (UTC)
 * How to give cooldown/cooldowngroup to deprecated spells? There was always a cooldown, the global exhaust system.
 * Should we have named spell categories? (cooldowngroup)
 * The parameters "type" and "subclass" seem a bit confusing.
 * Type is either "Instant", "Rune" or blank; basically a binary parameter. This is in line with Tibia's "Type".
 * Subclass is either "Attack", "Field", "Healing", "Supply" or "Support". Originally this was supposed to mirror the Tibia website's "Group" which has Attack, Healing, Support. Then we added Field, Supply, and now it forms its own standard. It doesn't even follow the website's standard for attack spells: Heavy Magic Missile should be "support" - all runes are "Support" on Tibia's website but our attack rune spells are considered to be attack spells.

History section on content pages
Hey guys. I'd like your opinion on adding a history section to pages. Currently we link to history subpages. Under the new system the subpages would stay for ease of editing but they would be included on the pages. The format of these history pages would be very different. We would need a standard for formatting them.

I have a working example of what I'd like to see: A Sweaty Cyclops. Notable changes: Of course this would be a long-term change. All history pages would need to be adjusted. The sooner we agree on a format the sooner we can get it done. -- Sixorish (talk) 13:49, May 27, 2015 (UTC)
 * History template gone.
 * Formatting: bullet points for core changes and indenting for elaboration.
 * Headings: no more "Origin", "Ice protection" etc. headings; the headings currently describe the changes (what), but they should describe the version (when). If Pair of Earmuffs receives another ice protection adjustment where would that go? Versions that introduce changes to an item should have a unique header.

I think we can all agree the history pages didn't work out what was intended when the format was created in the first page. The idea to have an origin for every history page wasn't really usable, either "introduced in update xx" (but we have implemented for this). Only a few pages have interesting origin stories.

So I agree a change is needed. Moving the content to the main articles seems reasonable, given that most history pages are very short right now, it saves a click if you don't have to navigate to them. I would suggest just completely moving their content instead of including (this would increase speed? or it doesn't matter after it's cached?).

It's a big project indeed, if every edit would be needed to be done manually. But I agree it's needed. I agree with your format, although I can imagine the bullet point list looks a little technical to most people. -- Bennie (talk ~ fellows) 14:00, May 27, 2015 (UTC)

We should always think on what is the best for our visitors to read and to edit. Thus, moving the history to the content page seems the best option.

Thanks Six for putting time and energy on this!

<font color="Blue">Hunter of Dragoes (<font color="Blue">Talk  · <font color="Blue">Contribs  · <font color="Blue">Admins ) - 02:22, May 28, 2015 (UTC)

Transferable
Hey guys, Sorry for a newbie question, but is it possible to make a specific item non-transferable, even thought it is pickable? If yes, how do I do it?

Cauli92 (talk) 21:03, June 5, 2015 (UTC)

Since the template treats every item that can be picked up as transferable, I guess you should add specific exceptions to this rule in the template in order to block this package-deal (personally I wouldn't know how to do this, though). -- Wouterboy (talk) 21:13, June 5, 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the info, that's what I was thinking when all my attempts failed and I was not really willing to try and edit infobox templates as I'm totally green in this kind of stuff - I would probably break something or make a dozen of unnecessary edits/rerolls :p

Uhm, however, I was going to ask if someone who's capable of handling this could add exceptions in a free time for these items smuggled from Dawnport:
 * The Chiller
 * The Scorcher
 * Lightest Missile Rune
 * Light Stone Shower Rune

But then I've checked Spellbook of the Novice and apparently, you can transfer it. As it makes no sense for it to be the only smuggled item that is visible in market and can be transfered, I assume it was just overlooked and should rather be reported by a tutor. I've asked a friend to do i already, so it's wisest to just wait and see to avoid unnecessary work.

Cauli92 (talk) 22:17, June 5, 2015 (UTC)

Not sure if I understand the problem. These items are impossible to obtain on the mainland, I presume? Our list is based on an official list provided by CipSoft. If CipSoft's internal list permits transferal then it can be transferred, unless there are inconsistencies of course. Transferable does not deal with whether or not you can actually obtain that item to perform the transfer.

Am I mistaking your intention?

As for the way to change it: it's all handled by the template Template:Transfer Restrictions and Template:Transfer Impossible. It was planned to add a parameter to items but since this data is given to us by CipSoft there's little reason to have it on the pages themselves. -- Sixorish (talk) 04:37, June 6, 2015 (UTC)

They are impossible to obtain right now, yes. They were supposed to be unobtainable at all, also yes. But as Cipsoft didn't do great job with testing Dawnport, there were multiple ways of getting these items to mainland and Cipsoft wasn't in a big rush to fix it, so now some players own plenty of them.

''Sharon: Oh, no, no, no, I'm sorry, but any the chiller has to stay on this world. Please check all of your depots as well as your inventory and make sure there's no the chiller to be found.''

Cauli92 (talk) 08:47, June 6, 2015 (UTC)

Oh... that's odd. CipSoft provides us with a list of items that are transferable but with restrictions, but they don't inform us what is not transferable. I have a feeling that you should be allowed to transfer these items. I can't see why not. But, for the meantime, I have added the 4 items you linked to Template:Transfer Impossible. Thanks -- Sixorish (talk) 10:56, June 6, 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for adding them in there, I will try to keep an eye on the case and possibly remove them if necessary. Btw, why is that trunk listed? Is it being an example or is there something specific about this item? It's not pickable, so it should appear as non-transferable as well.

Cauli92 (talk) 17:04, June 6, 2015 (UTC)

Some non-pickupable items are on that list because we only recently added the pickupable parameter. Before then the template didn't care for it and assumed all items were transferable unless they were on that list. So these non-pickupable items (football, wooden trunk) are on the list. They could safely be removed, Wooden Trunk isn't even transcluding the template so it obviously isn't being checked. -- Sixorish (talk) 03:32, June 7, 2015 (UTC)

I'll ask for the official list of non-transferable items. Thanks for bringing this up.

<font color="Blue">Hunter of Dragoes (<font color="Blue">Talk  · <font color="Blue">Contribs  · <font color="Blue">Admins ) - 05:09, June 8, 2015 (UTC)

Item Template
Some issues:
 * Is there a way to add some sort of 'hidden attributes' parameter to the template? Consumables such as the Veggie Casserole boost skills, but this does not become clear from their 'look text'. Treating these boosts as normal attributes therefore renders the 'look text' incorrect.
 * As of right now, the 'look texts' on rings with attributes make no sense. Attributes of rings are only visible when you put them on, but then the rings are not brand-new anymore. Easy fix, though: the actual duration can replace the 'brand-new', as it's possible to make a ring show its maximum duration by immediately looking at it after putting it on.
 * The above means that the 'duration' parameter would no longer need to appear in the right-hand box.
 * Also regarding duration, does anyone know how this is shown in-game for non-rings such as Fiery Rainbow Shield and Full Helmet of the Ancients? If this is different from how it is shown for rings, things will get tricky.
 * To be in complete concordance with the in-game 'look texts', all items providing protection (or taking some away) need to have 'protection' in front of their first resistance text, as in-game it is shown as e.g. "You see a terra hood (Arm:5, protection earth +4%, fire -5%)." --Wouterboy (talk) 16:00, June 6, 2015 (UTC)

I can't really help you on technical side unfortunatelly, as I'm not any good with it, but as I'm editing the page, least I should do is to provide HotA ingame description:

19:01 You see a helmet of the ancients (Arm:8). It weighs 27.60 oz. The gem of the helmet is burned out and should be replaced.

19:01 You see a helmet of the ancients (Arm:11). It weighs 27.60 oz. The gem is glowing with power.

Can't confirm Rainbow shield, but a friend has told me time isn't displayed in there as well. Cauli92 (talk) 17:04, June 6, 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Is it also not displayed when looking at them while wearing them? -- Wouterboy (talk) 17:37, June 6, 2015 (UTC)

Correct, the text is exactly the same whether you wear it or keep it in your backpack.

Cauli92 (talk) 17:40, June 6, 2015 (UTC)

Okay, thanks again. That means we will also need some sort of 'hidden duration' parameter. -- Wouterboy (talk) 18:01, June 6, 2015 (UTC)

-- Sixorish (talk) 03:14, June 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * On-use effects are somewhat different and indeed they should have a new parameter. Maybe |onuse= and the value being the same as the attribs (e.g. +5 distance fighting)?
 * The rings are not something we can deal with easily. We could add the time to the look text which might be a good idea.
 * As for removing it from the right table I don't think that's a good idea because the look text is primarily decoration, the table conveys a lot of information that's already in the look text, and that was by design.
 * Answered by Cauli. These two items do not preserve their time while unequipped. They decay just as any other item like torches or crystal pedestals. Duration is the time it takes to expire while equipped. The template partially supports "decaysto" and "decaytime" which should be used for all items that independently change IDs after x time, such as corpses, Crystal Pedestals, activated dolls and fansite items. These two items do not preserve their state while unequipped, so they should have decaysto= decaystime= not duration=.
 * I'll add the text 'protection'.


 * Yup, that should work just fine.
 * Sounds like a plan.
 * Didn't know this is intended, sorry.
 * Hadn't even thought of the non-preservation, but if this can be solved the way you decribed there's no problem.
 * Awesome.

However, I found something strange. There's a useless 'mlrequired' parameter integrated into the box for Spellbooks (but also for the five Rainbow Shields and some other items, presumably because of the word 'magic' in their 'look text'). There exist no spellbooks which require a certain magic level to wield, though, so now it just shows 'Unknown' for every one of them. -- Wouterboy (talk) 11:28, June 7, 2015 (UTC)

My bad, the magic level row was being included if it met "vocrequired > 0" which made no sense... I fixed that. -- Sixorish (talk) 15:46, June 7, 2015 (UTC)

I think we're missing something. Some rings change their sprite (thus, their ID) while they're equipped. That's when the attributes and timer (you can call it either 'decaytime' or 'duration') are activated. When they are unequipped, ID changes back to "normal", attributes are not in effect anymore and timer stops.

If I'm not missing anything, we should create pages for the equipped items and we could use 'decaytime'. Just like 'decaysto' and 'decaysfrom', we'd need a parameter to inform that the item changes into other item while equipped. Although, it might be tricky to get the 'decaytime' parameter from the 'whileequipped' item to use it in the non-equipped item page. Perhaps, the best solution would be an additional parameter (like 'duration') for this kind of items only.

Does anyone remember an item that decays only while equipped but doesn't change ID while equipped?

Need for a different parameter:

I remember when I was making some tests with branch that it disappeared from my inventory as soon as I logged in. This indicates there's a timer parameter that runs even if the player is offline. I have the impression I've heard of server-based timers before, but can't remember other examples/items now. I believe CipSoft uses the same parameter when they want to delete event-items like some Christmas items and bug-items such as Trashed Draken Boots by setting this parameter to 1 or 0 second.

We could either use a different timer parameter for this kind of item (like branch) or use an auxiliary parameter like 'serverbasedtimer=yes'.

<font color="Blue">Hunter of Dragoes (<font color="Blue">Talk  · <font color="Blue">Contribs  · <font color="Blue">Admins ) - 05:09, June 8, 2015 (UTC)

Bag with Stolen Gold is probably the item you're looking for. Also, I agree we could use separated pages for active rings.

Cauli92 (talk) 09:38, June 8, 2015 (UTC)

I think it's important that the base ring keep the duration. Otherwise people would have to look up both articles to get the information they need... That's the problem then, how do you do that while satisfying the other "requirements" (fixed look text)? -- Sixorish (talk) 10:22, June 8, 2015 (UTC)

Yes, we could use 'decaytime' for active rings and 'duration' for base rings. That's what I meant before.

<font color="Blue">Hunter of Dragoes (<font color="Blue">Talk  · <font color="Blue">Contribs  · <font color="Blue">Admins ) - 15:09, June 8, 2015 (UTC)

But decaytime doesn't display when looking at an item so it wouldn't work. Best option would probably be to have 3 articles: one combined, one unequipped, one equipped. Seems like overkill but it's the only way to get the best of both worlds. -- Sixorish (talk) 15:20, June 8, 2015 (UTC)

Wouldn't it work with an auxiliary parameter like durationlookmsg=yes?

<font color="Blue">Hunter of Dragoes (<font color="Blue">Talk  · <font color="Blue">Contribs  · <font color="Blue">Admins ) - 15:33, June 8, 2015 (UTC)

Was just about to suggest that solution. This way, we would only need two pages, and we would have a situation similar to Illumination. -- Wouterboy (talk) 15:40, June 8, 2015 (UTC)

Object -> Item
Let me know if there's anything else that needs to be changed in the conversion... -- Sixorish (talk) 15:36, June 13, 2015 (UTC)

That sounds terrible, in my opinion. They seem to me to be two entirely different domains. More similar than e.g. Creatures and Items, but still. Pretending them to be the same by categorising them together is ludicrous. -- Wouterboy (talk) 16:16, June 13, 2015 (UTC)

They follow the same mechanics. They might seem to be different domains but they aren't. Our definition of an object is arbitrary and in some cases we've even found ourselves confused, such as with Footballs. In the game files all that separates an item from an object is a single boolean that says an item is immobile. And that's probably not even accurate for some items.

With that said, I do agree that there is usually a big distinction between movable and non-movable items. Users need to be able to make this distinction under the new system. That's what we have to figure out before we transition - how do we make this distinction. For a lot of item categories this will just mean additional classes. In that way almost all item categories won't even be affected (e.g. "Ground Tiles" might still be a separate class from all other item classes). Where the categories do overlap we could create separate tables e.g. "Movable Weapons" or "Immobile Weapons" or "Scenery Weapons"... -- Sixorish (talk) 16:37, June 13, 2015 (UTC)

Interesting discussion, I looked up the beginning of this: in 2007 User:Genosonic suggested to make the Objects page, he suggested this here "[objects] that are not considered as items because they are not movable". So that's the fundamental assumption we always used. There are of course exceptions, which make the distinction less clear. However, User:Whitelaces argues something I think we all agree upon "I agree that we need to keep them [objects] separate from the current list of items to avoid clutter and confusion".

At this point I'm not 100% sure if I'm in favor or against this change.. -- Bennie (talk ~ fellows) 17:01, June 13, 2015 (UTC)

I guess it would be most practical to have three sections, one for Items(Mobile and pickable), one for Objects(Mobile, but not pickable) and one for Scenery(Immobile and not pickable). However, from technical side, Six' proposal would probably be the best choice and while it may result in strange display of things, I bet it could make things easier for all of us. Therefore I'm also in doubt.

Cauli92 (talk) 17:15, June 13, 2015 (UTC)

PS: Notes2 serve a really good purpose on lists, so there's definitelly a reason to keep them.

Oh, sorry, just read second reply from Sixorish properly, if we could have it like he explained, one template, but three categories that would separate mobile, pickable etc, then I defintielly side with his vision. It's going to take a lot time sorting all the categories, though.

Cauli92 (talk) 17:20, June 13, 2015 (UTC)