User talk:Whitelaces/Archive 2007/06


 * 1) Question about "Template" pages
 * 2) Elder Beholder Abilities
 * 3) Rat Edit
 * 4) my page help
 * 5) Game Worlds
 * 6) Thank you!
 * 7) How many have visited a page
 * 8) Insects and Poisonous insects
 * 9) Wwwzhudan Vandal
 * 10) @ Preparing for Creature type update thingy
 * 11) My New Bots
 * 12) Block User
 * 13) List Headers
 * 14) Uploaded Images
 * 15) About damage table on weapon pages
 * 16) Regarding the update
 * 17) Bots
 * 18) Creature classes
 * 19) Strange thing happening with my user page
 * 20) Swords/Axe/Club List Template
 * 21) New Monsters
 * 22) The new damage calculations
 * 23) Weapon Lists

Question about "Template" pages
Hi Whitelaces, I got a question. How do you create a Template page? Just  Template:pagename ? Are there any requirements for a Template-page? Thanks in advance,

 Wie niet slim is moet slim zijn  ^^  &ordm; Bennie &ordm;  &curren; Talk &curren; ^^ 11:30, 31 May 2007 (PDT)

Yes. That's right. Edit a template page to have an idea how you have to build it to fit like the others, for example the Template:Dragon. When you are done and you want to include it, just write and it will display the template.

-- Maverick the hunter ω talk ω contribs 13:11, 31 May 2007 (PDT)

Let's stay in template topic... I find it anoying that almost all creature class templates includes a "complete" creature class list, since there are some monsters that'd fit into several classes (e.g. Pirate Ghost), and their page would show the "complete" list twice or more.

That's why I think we shouldn't include the complete list in all creature class templates but instead put it directly to the page of present creature.  Art Featherpitch - The mispseller -  Spam me     13:45, 31 May 2007 (PDT)

Bennie, that is correct. The "Template:" namespace is treated in a slightly different way from the global namespace, so all templates should be placed there. You can learn a lot about templates from looking at examples, but not all of the templates in this wiki are "good" examples, so I would actually suggest that you get most of your information from Wikipedia's template help pages. If you have any questions or get stuck on something, please ask.

-- Canis meus id comedit  --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 06:18, 1 June 2007 (PDT)

Elder Beholder Abilities
Dear Whitelaces, Could you please review the Elder Beholder Talk Page, taking note of what I mentioned and provide clarification on the matter. Perhaps you have information to confirm either way about the Elder Beholder's abilities. Reards, Clyde

Okay. I'll take a look at it.

--'' Magister Mundi sum! '' --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 05:28, 4 June 2007 (PDT)

Rat Edit
Hey why did you revert my edit to the rat page? o.o Kris 08:32, 4 June 2007 (PDT)

According to the official Tibia.com creature library:

''Rats have 20 hitpoints. It takes 200 mana to summon or convince these creatures.'' ''Rats yield 5 experience points. They carry cheese, gold coins, and worms with them.''

You had changed it to to 5 hp and 20 experience points.

--'' Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure. '' --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 09:16, 4 June 2007 (PDT)

my page help
Hey sorry for doing this here I just didn't know where else to put it. On my character page ([| Melphaso]) at the bottom of the page I keep getting something popping up that says "#ifeq:yes" How can I get rid of that? I just reloads the page.

This problem has been discussed on the bug reports page.

The short answer is that you need to do one of these two things:

First option: Turn "showstats" OFF:
 * showstats    = no

Second option: Place the damage calculator(s) on a subpage

One of those two will solve the problem.

--'' Docendo discimus. '' --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 05:48, 5 June 2007 (PDT)

Game Worlds
Is it me, or that s shouldn't be there?

Any idea what's that? -EMbet-5 Jun 2007 the no includes must be there or information that shouldnt be displayed will be displayed on the game worlds page &iquest;  Dis&Aring;st&eacute;r M&oacute;nt&ecirc;iro &#164;  T&atilde;lk &#164; &iquest; 08:35, 5 June 2007 (PDT)

It's fixed now. The noinclude tags were not closed on the gameworld pages.

--'' Cave canem. '' --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 09:16, 5 June 2007 (PDT)

Thank you!
Hi Whitelaces, I want to thank you very much! Today on 6 Juni 2007 at 14:09 you did a historical thing. You added the page Hunting Places to the "Popular Pages" list! An ordinary editor, like me, could only dream of such honor. By the way, It's an honor for me you added the Hunting Places page on the Main Page because I started with it :) You can see it in the history . Thanks a lot,

 Wie niet slim is moet slim zijn  ^^  &ordm; Bennie &ordm;  &curren; Talk &curren; ^^ 08:20, 6 June 2007 (PDT)

The real reason I added it to the main page, is because it had a high number of visits (especially for not being well-linked), and I think it is a page that many people find useful on this wiki.

It's not actually that big of a deal. At any rate, there's not much glory to be had working on a wiki like this... it is a community effort. I try to give credit where it is due, but you really have to find some intrinsic motivation instead, or you will just get burned-out.

--'' Non plaudite. Modo pecuniam jacite '' --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 19:21, 6 June 2007 (PDT)

How many have visited a page
Is it possible to see? :P


 * Scroll right to the bottom of any random page and it'll say "This page has been accessed x times. This page was last modified x.

An erig.net site." Craggles  [ Random::Chat::Guild::Contributions::Tibicam Profile ] 

You can also see this information in the list at Special:Popularpages.

-- Mirabile visu  --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 19:14, 6 June 2007 (PDT)

Insects and Poisonous insects
I was looking through the templates of creatures and it appears we infact have a template for insects - then a template for insects and poionsous creatures. Could you explain why or possibley delete one? '''Craggles [ Random::Chat::Guild::Contributions::Tibicam Profile ] '''

It looks like it was an accident. Make sure that all links are moved to use only one of them, and that one template is accurate, then we can delete the other one.

-- Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est.  --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 05:22, 11 June 2007 (PDT)
 * Do i just put that template on the pages I wan  to be rid of then?

Yeah. That's it.

-- Ridiculum sum, ergo sum  --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 06:10, 11 June 2007 (PDT)

Wwwzhudan Vandal
The user Wwwzhudan ( talk &bull; contribs &bull; [/&bot=1 bot contribs] &bull; [ block log] &bull; block ) has vandalized. Please review their edits and take appropriate actions if necessary.

Sincerely, Art~

I have left a warning on his talk page. If it happens again, he will be blocked from editing.

-- Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est.  --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 05:22, 11 June 2007 (PDT)

@ Preparing for Creature type update thingy
Did you already have a plan as to where the information would be set on the page? Or would you like me to propose an idea? '''Craggles [ Random::Chat::Guild::Contributions::Tibicam Profile ] '''

I'm always open to new ideas, but here's what I have in mind:


 * There will be a new line that says "This is a boss creature" or something like that
 * The "primarytype" and "secondarytype":
 * automatically categorize pages
 * maybe something similar to the lists on the right-side of the items pages....but probably underneath the infobox. I was going to play around a little and see what looked good.

-- <span title="(latin) We are amused by an excellent joke">Ioco optimo delactamur  --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 13:51, 12 June 2007 (PDT)
 * I was thinking that these extra info things would latch on in such a way that.


 * You'd have a purple box, the same width as the Creature infobox, that would display if it were a boss monster.


 * On the right a box for primary creature info e.g apes(like in the items section) that can be dragged up or down dependant on how long the list of primary creatures is. This would automatically categorize as you said.


 * On the bottom of the Info box there'd be a box (similiar to boss monsters but a different colour no doubt - perhaps blue, probably blue) that would display all the creatures in the secondary category. Perhaps they could be clickable images (clickable meaning they'd direct you to their creature's page - maybe even have a hover over option) as listing hundreds creatures isn't practical and it's much easier to navigate images.


 * At the bottom of the page the creature types template for extreme ease of navigation. It'd be completely seperate from the infobox and it'd be before any extra information like if the article is a stub or what npc's have to say.

I definatly think those wikipedian shades of purple and blue must be involved. I also think the use of images is a must because people can scan through images far quicker than they can names.

I hope you agree.

'''Craggles [ Random::Chat::Guild::Contributions::Tibicam Profile ] '''

Sounds pretty close to what I had in mind... I'll try a few things and see what seems to work best.

Expect to see something finalized in the next day or two, unless there are more ideas or discussions from anyone.

--'' <span title="(latin) I came, I saw, I got scared, I ran!">Veni, vidi, territus sum, curcurri! '' --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 14:19, 12 June 2007 (PDT)

Okay... I updated the template, but I had to make a few compromises.

I added both lists to the right (like on the items template). I think this looks the cleanest, and is very easy to read... when I had the list below the infobox, it was very distracting, and it obscured the content of the infobox.

I tried it with images, but I could not make it look good. Every way I tried made the whole thing look fake and unprofessional, so for now it is just using the text.

I had a similar problem with the "isboss" indicator... adding a new line above the infobox was too "cartooney" looking, and it seemed to unnecessarily draw your attention. I thought that the content of the infobox was more important than the one line that said "this is a boss creature".

So, these are the decisions I had to make. I think it looks pretty good, but I'm sure that we will find a way to improve it in the future. For now, it is a large improvement over the current methods.

So you can see it in action, I updated a couple creature pages:
 * Monk
 * Green Djinn
 * Dragon
 * The Old Widow

--'' <span title="(latin) Gag me with a spoon!">Fac me cocleario vomere! '' --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 06:47, 13 June 2007 (PDT)
 * I like it :) You know it says under some items that have an annotation like with golden armor it has in italics below the title It's enchanted armor, could we put this creature is Secondarytype and link it to Secondarytype's page (we'd have to redirect Misc of course). So it's say:

Giant Spider

This creature is a(n) Arthropod

See what i mean? '''Craggles [ Random::Chat::Guild::Contributions::Tibicam Profile ] '''

I see what you mean, but I would call that something else... like "supertype" or "category" or something like that. The "secondarytype" was really just so that one creature could belong to more than one type.

Let me think about it a little bit. There might be a better way to do what you are talking about.

--'' <span title="(latin) I am not lost.">Neutiquam erro. '' --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 07:09, 13 June 2007 (PDT)
 * Another thing - instead of haveing to update the Template:NAME lists by hand could we possibley use the information n the categories to do it? My knowledge on wiki coding is limited so what i'm asking is that the template would recognise that say Categor:Dragons has demodras dragon and dragon lord and it would add each of those to the template. Is it at all possible? '''Craggles  [ Random::Chat::Guild::Contributions::Tibicam Profile ]

'''

Funny you should mention that... I'm actually in the process of coding a bot that will do exactly that.

There is no way to do it in the wiki itself, but I'm about 45% done with this bot that will maintain those lists for both item types and for creatures types. It will actually build those lists based on the "primarytype" and "secondarytype" parameters directly on the creature pages.

I'm in the middle of something else at the moment, but that bot is next on my list.

--  --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 08:10, 13 June 2007 (PDT)
 * Do you rekon that it'd be done before or after the update just by guess? Are you thinking of expanding this to absolutly everything with an info box in wiki?

'''Craggles [ Random::Chat::Guild::Contributions::Tibicam Profile ] '''

I expect to have it done maybe this week (might be able to finish it up over the weekend).

About the scope... I don't know. So far it seems to have helped make the items pages easier to use, and I anticipate that the creature pages will benefit from it also, but I'm not sure how necessary it is for the other infoboxes.

We'll just have to wait and see. Was there something specific you had in mind?

-- <span title="(latin) Stupid is as stupid does">Stultus est sicut stultus facit  --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 09:44, 13 June 2007 (PDT)
 * There was always a place in my heart for the library section of wiki - can't think how it could be used for it though... I'd like to see a side scroll bar like in creatures and items on the library template. But i doubt the bot would have much work to do there.Unles you could make it automatically categorize books by their return page, and it'd add a Library template to each (like at the bottom of Template:Infobox Book '''Craggles  [ Random::Chat::Guild::Contributions::Tibicam Profile ]

'''

I think that would be best left to "intelligent" wiki users. Wiki bots are best used for repetitive or tedious tasks that do not require any brains. Bot writers need to be extremely careful when determining what to have them do, and in a small wiki like this, most things are better left to real people, instead of trying to automate everything. I really hesitate to implement any bots against this wiki, but there are a few things that I think would greatly benefit from being automated.

-- <span title="(latin) Behold the power of cheese">Ecce potestas casei  --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 12:28, 13 June 2007 (PDT)
 * I notice that there's a small edit war going on with the dragons. I was hoping to leave off undead dragons and dracola until your bot (if it could) would automatically update creature images and creature lists. See Humans and you'll notice under each link there is a list of all the creatures in that sub-group, in that sub group theres a list of monsters (alphabetically) Then boss or bosses. All these refer back to the Template:NAME List s, so as soon as we edit that list alone we'd have to update each of these pages. That's why I'd like to refrane from adding any creatures to secondary type lists until your bot (if it can) can refer to categories and ifboss section to update each of this pages effected. Hope I've made my views clear  '''Craggles  [ Random::Chat::Guild::Contributions::Tibicam Profile ]

'''

I didn't notice the "small edit war" you mentioned, but now I see what you mean about needing updated in many different places.

This is definitely a consideration for the bot I'm writing, and I guess I'll refrain from making those kinds of edits for now.

The thing that needs to be up-to-date (where the bot will be getting its data) is the individual creature pages. As long as each individual creature page has the correct "isboss", "creatureclass", etc. tags, then it will fix all of the other lists automatically (once it is finished and turned on).

--'' <span title="(latin) I am the Master of the World!">Magister Mundi sum! '' --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 06:16, 14 June 2007 (PDT)
 * Do you think it can consider for plurality (and I was hoping that'd it'd automatically organise everything with just the information on the creature's page) as in like Skeleton Boss for 1 and Pirate Bosses for plural? Also - rememeber the bot will have to consider Creature Types, and the sub poages involving listing by exp - and by ratio, etc. In my defense I did no choose to make these pages I just chose to reorganise the clutter of a categorized creatures section we had. '''Craggles  [ Random::Chat::Guild::Contributions::Tibicam Profile ]

'''

I'll look into it, but the architechture I have so far does not easily allow for handling plurals in the section titles.

About those other lists... they are useful, and serve a good purpose. The main problem is that they are so huge, and they take a long time to load. It adds more stress on the server because of the transcluded pages, and they are difficult to update manually because they load so slowly.

I don't have any "grand ideas" about how to fix this problem, but for now I can make sure they are always up-to-date by automating their maintenance.

-- <span title="(latin) Yes, that is a very large amount of corn.">Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est.  --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 06:43, 14 June 2007 (PDT)
 * Now you mention it - why does the server have slow patches. I usually edit when theres literally on my server, I assume that means there are very few people viewing or editing wiki, and yet sometimes wiki gets a 500 internal error (for like 20 seocnds) and others it just takes (I clocked it at 300 seonds for a page yesterday) ages to load. Is erig's server just overheating or something? Or are all these edits taking their toll? '''Craggles  [ Random::Chat::Guild::Contributions::Tibicam Profile ]

'''

There's a couple reasons for it... actually a combination of things.

The largest amount of stress on the server (I think) is caused by the large number of edits in a small period of time. If you check Special:Statistics, you can see that the server's job queue is pretty large right now, and it will continue to grow as we make "sweeping edits" to a large number of pages (especially templates).

The other major factor is the number of people reading the wiki. Pages that do not have any templates or includes should load pretty fast, but some of our wiki pages have a LARGE number of includes, and use many different templates. All of these need to be processed on the server every time the page is requested by a user.

Basically, because the wiki is popular (especially before and after game updates), the wiki sometimes goes slow.

--'' <span title="(latin) Carthage must be destroyed">Delenda est Carthago. '' --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 07:22, 14 June 2007 (PDT)
 * Won't you bot therefore cause alot of lag when it's initialy setup? Also - I've been thinking about This secondary Class thing and I've got some problems and some vague solutions.

Take for instance an undead dragon. It's a skeleton and fits under the Category The Undead pretty well. If it had a secondary as that of a dragon then your bot would update the reptile page to show an undead dragon under reptilian. Obviously a skeleton cannot be reptilian - reptilians are alive. A vague solution would be to get the bot to add to The Dragons page (and others alike) if necessary a Secondary attributes header and list creatures with similiar attributes to that category - for dragons we'd have dracola, undead, (hydras, serpent spaw?), not bones - anniversary not included. Then I'd suggest we request that the bot does not add these as images on the reptile page(for instance) as it may cause some confusion. I'd like to request that the bot then adds a Secondary Attributes Section to the Template:NAME List, this may all be over complicated and theres probably some quick and this may infact need an intellegent user to do, but I can hope. I would jsut rather the whole section be done well, cos I'd have a beholder to be listed under human.. '''Craggles [ Random::Chat::Guild::Contributions::Tibicam Profile ] '''

To address your concerns:


 * Lag for the server:
 * I have specifically designed this bot to be "nice" to the server. Once every few days it will attempt a full update of the list of creatures (in case new ones were added), but daily actions will be timed and limited. It will only update one list at a time, and it will wait a number of minutes or hours between updates. It will also monitor the recent changes (even to where it will know which fields were changed on each creature page) to know which lists need to be updated, so it will not make unnecessary edits. It should not put more strain on the server than a normal wiki editor.


 * Multiple types:
 * I'm not sure what you are explaining exactly, but I have recently changed how those other creature pages work. I have simplified them, and because of this, it should be easier for wiki editors to maintain. Also, the Creatures page will load MUCH MUCH faster now, and will provide links to the type groups of creatures in the same way that the Items page is now.

Does this answer your questions?

-- <span title="(latin) We are amused by an excellent joke">Ioco optimo delactamur  --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 13:54, 14 June 2007 (PDT)
 * Well that partly addresses my concern - the main point I was trying to get across is that the bot should involve a Secondary attribute sections to the Template lists and the Creature(pluraals) pages. Take for instance an undead dragon. On the creatures page it would be listed under skeletons and the undead primarily. However if we added it to Dragons aswell as a secondary class it'd appear under reptiles. We know an undead cannot be a reptile, and so the categorization of an Undead Dragon would be incorrect. Unless we for the Dragons list on the Dragons page and the Creatures and the Template:Dragons put the Undead Dragon under Secondary attribute. We'd link this to a Secondary attribute article which would say this is a secondary attribute and as such may not adhere to all the specifications of that species. Primaryclass creatures are all matched and work to a strict code - secondary class creatures should be a seperate part of the pages because they won't follow what the categorizes and classes specify. I don't know how to make myself clearer - it's quite confusing. '''Craggles  [ Random::Chat::Guild::Contributions::Tibicam Profile ]

'''

Well... currently, the "creatureclass" is assigned manually, and there can only be one for each creature. So Undead Dragon will only be in the "Undead" class. But since it is clearly also a dragon, it is listed as a "Skeleton" and a "Dragon".

I'm not sure how we would distinguish "primary" and "secondary" types on those lists, without confusing readers. We need to ensure that the learning curve for reading this wiki is as small as possible, and every way I can think of to distinguish them would unneccesarily complicate the list.

I think we need to be more flexible in how we consider the "types"... compare these two statements:


 * 1) "Only reptiles can be put in the Dragons list."
 * 2) "Most creatures listed as dragons are reptiles, so we should put dragons in the class of reptiles."

I agree that we should be as complete and accurate as we possibly can, but this is not a formal taxonomy, and we primarily need to consider the viewpoint of people using the wiki. This means that we should employ hueristics and logical cognitive grouping techniques, even when they may not fix strictly in the "single-path" tree structure.

You have done a fabulous job working on these lists, and we need to keep them usable, so that your hard work yields great benefit for all wiki visitors.

--'' <span title="(latin) Say, you sure are drinking a lot.">Re vera, potas bene. '' --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 14:19, 14 June 2007 (PDT)
 * So what you're saying is for the time being secondary class groups would cause issues; the question is how do we stop edit wars without protecting the pages. Remember the little edit war on Dragons, how do we stop users adding Undead Dragons and Dracola? You know aswell as me people will jump at any oppurtunity to add. Also - would yuo say a frost dragon is a reptile, because it doesn't look reptilian whatsoever and I'm considering moving it to Cryo-Elementals. '''Craggles  [ Random::Chat::Guild::Contributions::Tibicam Profile ]

'''

I'm not sure it would cause that many problems. I actually think that Undead Dragon should be listed under both "skeleton" and "dragon", but primarily, it is an undead/skeleton. Adding it to both lists increases its visibility. Also, I find it equally likely that someone looking for "Undead Dragon" would start looking at either "undeads" or "dragons", so for usability, I think it should be listed in both places.

About frost dragon, I think it is the same deal. It should be classified as an "elemental", and its primary type should be "cryo-elemental", but I think it should also be listed in "dragons", so that people can find it from there.

Basically I guess I'm talking about increasing the accessability of the information in this wiki, and making it more usable for visitors. I do not think we can adequately limit each creature to only one "type".

-- <span title="(french) It's the finish of the greenbeans">C'est la fin des hericots  --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 14:42, 14 June 2007 (PDT)
 * So at the price of accuracy comes accessibility Super:). Can we implement the secondaries after your bot's running though - I don't fancy editing everything individually. '''Craggles  [ Random::Chat::Guild::Contributions::Tibicam Profile ]

'''
 * Ok, new idea. Why can't we (under the list on the right assumabley) say (if secondary class) this creature may also share qualities of (secondarytype). Would that work? '''Craggles  [ Random::Chat::Guild::Contributions::Tibicam Profile ]

'''

On Undead Dragon, the "secondarytype" produces the list on the bottom (dragons). Is this what you mean?

-- <span title="(latin) Always wear underwear on your head.">Semper ubi sububi in caput tuum  --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 08:29, 15 June 2007 (PDT)
 * No not a secondary list - just a setence stating that the monster has attributes of another creature group. So for instance on the undead draogn's page it would have the list of skeletons and then under that say - "This creature also has attributes from the class Dragons." That way we wouldn't have to add undead dragons to the Dragons page but still show that the Undead Dragon is related to Dragons. '''Craggles  [ Random::Chat::Guild::Contributions::Tibicam Profile ]

'''

Freezgoiz and Yeti's. Where the hell do i list them? Do I give them their own category even though Freegoiz is yet to be verified to exist. Do I make yeti's bosses, even though they spawn in-packs (though irregularly). What should be done? '''Craggles [ Random::Chat::Guild::Contributions::Tibicam Profile ] '''

Sorry about the delay in replying to this. There has been a pretty heated debate about the nature of Yetis. I would have directed you to choose whatever seemed most reasonable to you, and then we can debate about it later. Maybe the update will reveal some more information that will make it more clear.

--'' <span title="(latin) Make haste slowly.">Festina lente. '' --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 05:46, 18 June 2007 (PDT)

My New Bots
I have finished coding two bots to maintain certain pages of this wiki. Details about their operation can be found at User:TavinBot_TypeLists and User:TavinBot_CreatureLists.

They are not yet active. I will do some manual testing on each of them for the next few days, then I will "turn them on" as a preliminary release and monitor their actions closely for a few days.

If all goes well, then I plan to have them in fully-automated operation by some time next week.

This "trial period" is also to allow wiki users to offer feedback about the bots (philosophically, critically, supportive, whatever) before they are fully implemented.

I believe that these bots will assist in maintaining the accuracy and completeness of this wiki, and will relieve some of the burden of maintenance from the normal wiki users and admins.

Now that I have the framework in place, it will greatly simplify the creation of bots in the future as the need arises, but I take this action very seriously. Since the integrity of this wiki is at stake, the amount of work that a bot is allowed to do will be very limited. Automated processes are not a replacement for human intellect, but it can be a valuable tool when used properly and responsibly.

I welcome any comments, suggestions and feedback.

--'' <span title="(latin) Bad kitty!">Feles mala! '' --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 08:43, 15 June 2007 (PDT)


 * It says your new bots are inactive - is that a good sign or does it mean your computer is off? Also the Creature Lists bot seems to have (by its contributions0 not done it's job too well... It orders the creatures alphabetically under the exp titles and some monsters like the thul are in the wrong place. '''Craggles  [ Random::Chat::Guild::Contributions::Tibicam Profile ]

'''

Yes, they are pseudo-inactive. I have them coded, and I'm testing them right now. They are not allowed to run on their own yet, until they are properly tested and verified to be working correctly.

About the list being out of order... I don't see where it has made a mistake. The only list it has updated so far is List of Creatures by Hit Points, and all of the creatures are listed in order of the number of hit points they have. In cases where their hitpoints are the same, they are ordered by name alphabetically. So far it is working as intended... does it need to change?

--'' <span title="(latin) Hey! Did you nail my sandals to the floor?">Salve! Crepidas meas per clavos ad solum adfixinte? '' --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 12:18, 15 June 2007 (PDT)
 * My bad, I was looking at exp, sorry about that. Also i've left some pages for the bot to update just to test if you wanted. Unfortunately I can't exactly remember which lists it has to update. I recently completely went through all the creatures and made sure they were all updated correctly - but I didn't update the lists :)
 * Tavinbot has deleted the contents of Template:Axe Weapons List, what happened? '''Craggles  [ Random::Chat::Guild::Contributions::Tibicam Profile ]

'''

That's exactly why I'm doing this testing :)

That was actually a problem with one of my regular expressions. It's fixed now, and thanks for keeping an eye on this stuff!

--'' <span title="(latin) In every sense, a man of Minerva.">Omnis Minervae homo Petronius. '' --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 13:23, 15 June 2007 (PDT)
 * School holidays, nothing better to do. I thought I'd be irritating you by now... may I ask - where did you learn all this programming and coding? Everyting I know comes from plagerising other people's tables and alike and just playing about in sandboxes. Did you take courses or alike? '''Craggles  [ Random::Chat::Guild::Contributions::Tibicam Profile ]

'''

Most of it was self-taught in grade-school and high-school, but I do have a Computer Science degree from a university.

I guess the best way to learn is to have a project, and easy access to reference materials... and then do that project once... then throw it away and do it again from scratch. You will learn more about the technology, and how you should have done it the first time through... the second time through it should actually be usable. Once you really know what you're doing, you will find that writing down a good design is the most important step, before you even start coding.

Without receiving some instruction from somewhere, that's probably the easiest way to learn (for me anyways).

Well... now that I have given you a vague and dull answer... if you have any specific questions, I'll try to answer them.

--'' <span title="(italian) How unfaithful are Italian men, really?">Quanto sono infedeli, in realta, gli uomini italiani? '' --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 13:50, 15 June 2007 (PDT)
 * Vague and dull works just fine by me thank you.
 * Could you code your Creature list bot to also update the Dragons, Rings and other lists like that in reference to categories and what's on a creature's page?
 * Could you also update the Template:Infobox Creature to include arena bosses and make the parameter | isarenaboss = yes/no. It would just go where the current boss information goes only it would be specific to arena bosses.
 * Could you also make it so if a creature is a boss it adds Category:Bosses to the page please.

'''Craggles [ Random::Chat::Guild::Contributions::Tibicam Profile ] '''

Let me think about making a bot to update those kinds of lists. Creatures would probably be fine, but I think we would have to change some things about the items template to make that work correctly.... I'll look into it.

I have added the category "Bosses" to the template (when the "isboss" flag is true), but are we sure that the "arena bosses" are actually bosses? Would they be better listed as something else?

-- <span title="(latin) Hold my calls">Fac ut nemo me vocet  --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 05:53, 18 June 2007 (PDT)
 * I'm certain. They have names different to that of their image counter-parts even though they share the same traits. However, unlike bosses they spawn regularly so i don't think it's best to categorize them as bosses either. I believe we do need a | isarenaboss paramter. If you compare the traits of regular creatures bosses and arena bosses you'd see how different arena bosses vary from both. I think it's best to get them their own paramter and not give them a list on the right-hand side.

Makes sense to me. I have added it to the template.

-- <span title="(latin) Farewell Caesar, they who are about to die salute you.">ave, Caesar, morituri te salutant  --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 06:15, 18 June 2007 (PDT)

Block User

 * [[Image:Warning Icon Yellow.png|25px|left]] The user Boneth ( talk &bull; contribs &bull; [/&bot=1 bot contribs] &bull; [ block log] &bull; block ) has vandalized . Please review their edits and take appropriate actions if necessary.

hes been on a rampage, creating fake pages and editing user pages Sincerely, User:Disaster monteiro

Erig has already blocked him. Art~

Yeah, I was away for the weekend, so I missed it. Thanks for taking care of that, Erig, and thanks for the report Art.

--'' <span title="(latin) Carthage must be destroyed">Delenda est Carthago. '' --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 05:09, 18 June 2007 (PDT)

List Headers

 * TavinBot TypeLists has added Documents and Papers to the top of Template:Documents and Papers List - it's only meant to do this with creatures and didn't do it to Template:Club Weapons List, is it a bug? '''Craggles  [ Random::Chat::Guild::Contributions::Tibicam Profile ]

'''

Not a bug, but a configuration error. Some lists should have the headings, some should not have any headings, some should only skip the first heading but leave all others...I already noticed it and updated the configuration and flagged that list for update again... it will be fixed when it reaches that list in its update queue.

If you notice any more like that, please let me know!

--'' <span title="(italian) Those shoes are really beautiful.">Quelle scarpe sono veramente stupende. '' --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 07:22, 18 June 2007 (PDT)


 * TavinBot CreatureList added Frost Giant 2 '''Craggles  [ Random::Chat::Guild::Contributions::Tibicam Profile ]

'''

I also noticed that one. It was because the code of the page Giants had " " instead of "Frost Giantess".

I updated the Giants page so that the type list will be fixed next time it gets updated.

--'' <span title="(latin) Beware of the Dog">Cave canem. '' --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 07:39, 18 June 2007 (PDT)


 * I thought the tavin bot looked up the Category monsters though? Thats what it says on it's; btw tavinbot typelists did as it did with Template:Documents and Papers on Template:Quest Items List.

'''Craggles [ Random::Chat::Guild::Contributions::Tibicam Profile ] '''

No, it tries to "copy" the original list into the typelist. The example on its userpage is that when Rings is update, it will update Template:Rings_List to reflect any changes that were made.

Maybe confused?

It does use a couple categories to find new lists to maintain, but the contents of the typelists are still taken from the original list.

-- <span title="(latin) Stupid is as stupid does">Stultus est sicut stultus facit  --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 08:08, 18 June 2007 (PDT)


 * It says that creature lists check categories and typelist checks pages like rings and giants. Cosnidering creaturelist updates the hp and ultimately put Front Giant(2) ... well I'm it jsut baffles me. Looking over the cotegories (in which tavinbot creaturelist check it) no frost giants are there. Or does it check the Category:Creature just for Creature types? Then uses the information on the creature types' pages to update the creature by hp convince ect.


 * See this, for some reason the bot cleared the page. Also it's been adding Headers to some pages such as:

I'll add more if I find them.
 * Template:Trophies List
 * Template:Quest Items List
 * Template:Game Tokens List
 * The type lists bot fixed all of the above but inturn deleted the contents of Template:Papers and Documents

'''Craggles [ Random::Chat::Guild::Contributions::Tibicam Profile ] ''' 14:07, 18 June 2007 (PDT)

Uploaded Images
Hey ya Whitelaces. I'm having some trouble figuring out how to upload images correctly. Is there anywhere I can go that will explain it? Or would you happen to have any pointers? Anyways, could you delete this page ? Thanks for the help! ~ Uno time

A great free program that is easy to learn is called Paint.NET (http://www.getpaint.net/). It allows transparency and changing the color pallet, etc.

Be sure to save your item images in GIF format, and crop them to an appropriate size. Multiples of 16px or 32px are preferred, and should match the actual graphic size in-game with the "no stretch" option turned on.

-- <span title="(latin) Stupid is as stupid does">Stultus est sicut stultus facit  --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 05:40, 18 June 2007 (PDT)

You should also consider getting SnagIt (it isn't free), but it's perfect for taking screenshots. Here's a page of the features: http://www.techsmith.com/snagit.asp

It allows you to take screenshots of just regions, windows and of course the full screen. It comes with a Preview editor and with it you can add text, symbols, crop it, etc.

See for yourself :) (this sounds like spam... but I hope it's helpful, at least for others ^^) -- 08:42, 18 June 2007 (PDT)

About damage table on weapon pages
Hello White. I don't know if you were able to play on the test server, but as the teasers says and about our experience on test server, we can say that the melee will change alot. We are not sure about how much it will change on the oficial update, but I suggest that those tables, at last for now, get removed, and after the updated the formulas could be studied better and re-make those tables

--  &dagger; Pudd Knight &dagger;  Talk <span style="small-caps; border: 0px solid #186fc8; background-color:White; color:#186fc8" title="My Contributions"> Contribs  -- 09:06, 18 June 2007 (PDT)

I was planning to leave those tables there until the update occurs, then remove them until we learn the new formulas. Same thing with the damage calculator... it will be removed when the update occurs, and once we learn the new formulas, it can be re-built.

--'' <span title="(latin) Make my day.">Fac ut gaudeam. '' --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 10:34, 18 June 2007 (PDT)

Regarding the update
Well, with this new update the requirement for some weapons will be changed, and as the infobox item/creature is protected I would like to ask you to edit it to add two new parameters:

- Infobox Creature: Similar to "isboss" in the monster template, I would like to ask you to add "arenaboss" so the arena bosses can get organised in their own cathegory.<BR> - Infobox Item: Need to add a paremeter in there that would display the level requirement for a weapon, similar to what the weight looks like. Something like "Level req." or whatever you might find it's fit.

Yours,<bR> -- Maverick the hunter ω talk ω contribs 11:35, 18 June 2007 (PDT)
 * Whitelaces already implemented both of those functions. See Spirit of Fire for an example of the | isarenaboss = yes paramtre. And the lvel req will be fully implemeneted after the update though it would be sweet if you filled in the info now see Template:Infobox Creature for the right paramter name '''Craggles  [ Random::Chat::Guild::Contributions::Tibicam Profile ]

'''

Yeah, I already added these to the templates. The level requirement for weapons is not visible on the pages yet, but as soon as the update comes out, I'll make them show up. I didn't want to confuse people about the weapons yet.

--'' <span title="(latin) If Caesar were alive, you'd be chained to an oar.">Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris. '' --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 11:52, 18 June 2007 (PDT)

Bots
I've just had an idea. Could you add a subcategory = Quara Scout - Triangle of Terror Ruthless Seven etc option. What I'd like to see is if this did nothing more than alerted your bots to create a new header for those monsters on the monster's page. For instance if you put | subcategory = Quara Scouts on the Quara page your bot would make a header for the quara scouts that says Quara Scouts and lists them below. It would only be handy in circumstances like Archdemons, Anniversary Monsters and Quara but I think it's worth doing. Also it'd help for creatures like the haloween hare and the Ruthless Herald.

Also - The page Bears had pandas and polar bears removed, I can't imagine why. '''Craggles [ Random::Chat::Guild::Contributions::Tibicam Profile ] '''

Thanks for the comments. It turns out that a few of those creature lists were updated wrong because the bot had not "caught up" with updating all of the creature information in its database. I flushed its queue, and now the database is correct, and all of those lists have been flagged for re-update. They should be corrected throughout the day today.

About the "subcategory" thing.... I'm afraid that this is getting too complicated. I think that any average wiki editor will understand the difference between "creatureclass" and "primarytype"/"secondarytype", but I think "priamrysubtype", etc. will be over-complicating it, and will possibly prevent some users from contributing... maybe I'm wrong.

For now, I can manually set the configuration of the bot so that it has those "special" sections... but I don't think I'm going to add a "subtype" to the template yet.

-- <span title="(latin) The fat lady has sung">Obesa cantavit  --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 07:16, 22 June 2007 (PDT)

One of the bots blanked the list template for canines. Was that supposed to happen? <span style="font:small-caps bold 9px/1 verdana;border:2px solid #000;"><span style="font:small-caps bold 9px/1 verdana;border:1px solid #fff;color:#fff;background-color:#800;"> Art Featherpitch - The mispseller - <span style="font:small-caps bold 9px/1 verdana;border:2px solid #000;"><span style="font:small-caps bold 9px/1 verdana;border:1px solid #fff;color:#fff;background-color:#800;"> Give me a sign of life  21:38, 24 June 2007 (PDT)

I don't know why that happened... I just re-tried it and everything worked correctly. The wiki might not have been responding very well at the time.... maybe that had something to do with it. I will try to make it take this into account more so that it will hopefully not do that again.

Thanks for letting me know!

-- <span title="(latin) Farewell Caesar, they who are about to die salute you.">ave, Caesar, morituri te salutant  --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 06:05, 25 June 2007 (PDT)

Creature classes
I got a question, why does e.g. the Behemoth got the Humanoids class and not the Giants class? I think that's weird, I don't exactly see a Behemoth human. If it is a mistake I can change it.

 <span title="(dutch) Who isn't smart, needs to be smart">Wie niet slim is moet slim zijn  ^^  &ordm; Bennie &ordm;  &curren; Talk &curren; ^^ 08:00, 22 June 2007 (PDT)

They are in the Humanoids class... there is a separate class for Humans.

I think that "Giants" is too restrictive to use as a creatureclass, and the basic body structure does resemble human beings, so according to the definition of a Humanoid, I think it is a good fit as it is now.

-- <span title="(latin) Everybody's a comedian">Quisque comoedus est  --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 08:10, 22 June 2007 (PDT)

Ok, in that way you are right (I read the page on wikipedia). Thanks!

 <span title="(dutch) Who isn't smart, needs to be smart">Wie niet slim is moet slim zijn  ^^  &ordm; Bennie &ordm;  &curren; Talk &curren; ^^ 05:38, 23 June 2007 (PDT)

Strange thing happening with my user page
Hello there :)

I'm in need of some help. I've been making some changes to my user page in order to update it a bit. However, I'm facing now a problem that I really can't understand. By the middle of the page, variables that were being requested by /data|var stop to work properly. It's clearly visible on the "skills" row: sword is being displayed, but distance is not, even though they have the same expression. I'm not sure if everything I did is 100% correct; anyways, I don't know who else to ask for assistance :P

Thanks in advance

11:47, 24 June 2007 (PDT)

This problem has been discussed on the bug reports page.

The short answer is that you need to use Template:Equips_Set_Basic instead of Template:Equips_Set. Because Template:Equips_Set]] has become so bloated, it is nearly unusable anymore. It's on my list of things to work on, but it's not very high on the list.

--'' <span title="(latin) I can't hear you. I have a banana in my ear.">Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure. '' --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 06:28, 25 June 2007 (PDT)

Could you not just change the Template:Equips_Set code to that of Template:Equips_Set_Basic and to disregard additional parameters? Unless you still want to keep the weight, defense, attacks but do it in a better way. --DM ><((°> Contribs <°))>< talk to me 09:33, 25 June 2007 (PDT)

The reason I didn't do that to begin with is because I didn't want to remove the functionality that was there already. It can still be used, even though it is severely bloated, but it frequently causes problems on userpages.

I was going to see if there was some way to make it have the same (or similar) functionality, but be much more efficient, so that it was truly "usable" again.

I haven't looked at this very closely, but there must be some way to at least improve it... like I said, I'll get to it sometime, but you are welcome to try and fix it if you want to.

-- <span title="(latin) From possibility to actuality">A posse ad esse  --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 10:51, 25 June 2007 (PDT)

Swords/Axe/Club List Template
I think we need the column to show the Level required to properly wield weapons, because like that, we can look at the list and compare swords easily. -- 11:09, 25 June 2007 (PDT)

That's a good idea. I'll take care of it.

-- <span title="(latin) I can't believe I ate the whole thing">Non possum credere me totum edisse  --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 11:22, 25 June 2007 (PDT)

Taking the opportunity, I would like to suggest that weapons list template get separated by one handed/two handed (on the same list). Like, if you browse a Katana, you'll see on the list all one handed/two handed swords like it is now, just separated by a subtitle or something, just like on Rings.

--  &dagger; Pudd Knight &dagger;  Talk <span style="small-caps; border: 0px solid #186fc8; background-color:White; color:#186fc8" title="My Contributions"> Contribs  -- 12:28, 25 June 2007 (PDT)

Sorry for not mentioning this but I had already been working on that and had created an edited template :P You can check it out here. You can also check the lists of weapons I've been working on for when the update occurs here. In my opinion, it looks a bit better than the current updated weapon template xD. Thanks! ~ Uno time

New Monsters
As detected by my kill script:

new monster: achad new monster: avalanche new monster: axeitus headbanger new monster: bloodpaw new monster: bovinus new monster: colerian the barbarian new monster: darakan the executioner new monster: deathbringer new monster: drasilla new monster: fallen mooh'tah master ghar new monster: frostfur new monster: gnorre chyllson new monster: grimgor guteater new monster: kreebosh the exile new monster: norgle glacierbeard new monster: orcus the cruel new monster: rocky new monster: slim new monster: svoren the mad new monster: the dark dancer new monster: the hag new monster: the hairy one new monster: the masked marauder new monster: the obliverator new monster: the pit lord new monster: webster new monster: barbarian bloodwalkers new monster: barbarian brutetamers new monster: barbarian headsplitters new monster: barbarian skullhunters new monster: braindeaths new monster: chakoya tribewardens new monster: crystal spiders new monster: cursed gladiators new monster: dire penguins new monster: frost dragons new monster: frost giantesses new monster: frost giants new monster: huskies new monster: ice golems new monster: ice witches new monster: penguins new monster: silver rabbits new monster: spirits of earth new monster: spirits of fire new monster: spirits of water new monster: chakoya toolshapers new monster: chakoya windcallers new monster: yakchal

--Erig 01:24, 27 June 2007 (PDT)

Thanks for the update!

-- <span title="(latin) At last, here come the pigs">Demum, veniunt porci  --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 06:00, 27 June 2007 (PDT)

new monster: man in the cave

--Erig 01:18, 28 June 2007 (PDT)

The new damage calculations
Seeing as how there have been a major revamp in the damage dealing system, I would like to ask your help to fix the template of the damages. Basing from my damage, in the test server.. I was a level 61 with magic level 58. I managed to deal about 102-155 damage.

Could you please take a look into it? -- Maverick the hunter 08:36, 27 June 2007 (PDT)

I was already planning to check it out, but I think we need more than just the two of us working on this.

So far, it seems that the instant spell damage was not affected as much as rune damage... for instance... I saw a 15% decrease in my damage when using HMM, and I did not notice any decrease in my damage when using energy-strike.

More information is obviously needed!

--'' <span title="(latin) Make haste slowly.">Festina lente. '' --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 08:56, 27 June 2007 (PDT)

Weapon Lists
Hey ya Whitelaces, I was wondering if you thought the weapon lists should be arranged? I have a feeling players will be looking at the level requirement list over the weapon attack list for new information. I have almost finished the sword page I've been working on here. Let me know what you think (especially if I didn't make any sense lol) :) Thanks! ~ Uno time

I think that's alright. I'm working on another bot that will maintain the items lists... but I'm waiting until things settle down from the update before I start using it, so feel free to make those list pages if you want to. I think you are correct... people will be interested in the level requirement for the weapons... but don't get rid of the list by attack... I think it is still used almost as much as this other list will be.

--'' <span title="(latin) I am the Master of the World!">Magister Mundi sum! '' --  Whitelaces &dagger;  Talk &dagger; -- 05:37, 28 June 2007 (PDT)